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pennsylvania_flu
tist
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Does anyone have any ideas on how a person who plays piccolo can learn to play more in tune? Is there some type of device you can use to train your ear? I thought I saw something like that on eBay, but you all know how those ads can be deceiving.
We played Stars and Stripes last night (three picc. players) and it was absolutely horrible. Thing is, it was in tune until the break strain and then it went downhill from there. When we are not in tune all three of us start adjusting and it just doesn't work. Any suggestions on how to get three players to play more in tune together?
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Patrick
(1515 points)
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working with a good tuner, such as one by Korg, can help..I have students who have digital pianos record scales and intervals on the keyboard and have them match them, that can be done with a tuner as well..
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Micron
(1476 points)
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It is ridiculous to have three piccolos in unison. A musical crime.
In those high frequencies, the tiniest discrepancies in tuning show as awful 'beats'.
An equivalent out-of-tuneness between two low instruments would not even be noticed, because the beat frequency would be so slow.
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pennsylvania_flu
tist
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Yeah, I agree about three players. Personally I like it best when it's done as a solo. However, the director is a former percussionist (and no offense), but he thinks louder is better. So, he believes the more piccolos in this piece the better so he asked the first three chairs to play it. Sometimes I wonder if we wouldn't be better off if all of the flute players (6) played piccolo on the obligato. It seems to me that the tuning discrepancies would not be as obvious??? What do you all think?
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JOhnlovemusic
(453 points)
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I see 2 issues right away, one can be fixed and one can't.
The one that can't be fixed is the conductor.
What you can fix is the manner in which the three of you play. Someone is going to hurt emotionally here but . . . you mentioned when you hear yourselves playing out of tune you all try to adjust to each other.
You need to set up a protocol. Oneof you needs to not adjust at all, no matter what. Assign each of yourselves a number. Number 1 does not adjust. Number 2 is responsible to tune to #1, and #3 is responsible to tune to #2. (or you could hae #3 tune to #1). Regardless where anyone thinks #1 is, wether sharp or flat, the other 2 must adjust to #1.
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Tibbiecow
(301 points)
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It is traditional to have several piccolos (three or four, even) play piccolo on the Stars and Stripes.
It is close to impossible to get all of the piccolos in tune.
The US Marine Band, when I last saw them play, had three or four flutists on piccolo during this piece. They sounded great and they even synchronize their trills. So...it CAN be done. (But perhaps best only attempted by a professional, on a closed course??)
Our band typically has two or three piccolos on Stars and Stripes, but only one piccolo plays in the high octave until the obligatto. The others drop down and play in the same octave as the flutes.
You can certainly play MORE in tune, though. If everyone has a $20 Korg (or other brand) tuner to practice with, they can get a lot closer. You can get an input to clip onto the instrument that goes to the tuner, to stay in tune as you play during practice.
If everyone plays the same brand/model piccolo, (say everyone has a Gemeinhardt SHP or everyone has a Yamaha 32), the particular notes on those piccolos which tend to be sharp or flat, will be sharp or flat together.
Here's something that might work: Use only one piccolo the first time through the obligatto section so the tuning isn't so obviously dreadful. When the section repeats (usually at a much increased volume), add the other piccolos in.
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Patrick
(1515 points)
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I have been part of groups that have done this in tune, we were able to do this because we were able to play in tune first with ourselves, which is a necessity before you attempt to play in tune with someone else...
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Alieannie
(837 points)
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Louder is better? Trust me, one piccolo can pierce over an orchestra or band anyday, is what I'd like to say to him lol.
Did he say anything about the intonation? (or outoftonation as I call it, when it gets that bad lol) Maybe you or one of the players could bring it up to him and see if he noticed how off it was. Then once the subject has been broached, he might be more inclined to allow just one picc play the solo.
Yes, professionals can and should be able to play it in tune, but that may be a lot to ask of a community group. There's no shame in whatever you can accomplish after working together and doing the best you can do.
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pennsylvania_flu
tist
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Yes, he notices that it is out of tune and he says something to us all the time. He makes us stop and get the tuners out and tune up a Bb. Well, we all know what kind of effect that has on overall tuning... basically none. I think we'd be much better off it we tuned to the high Eb or something similar because that's the note that's played a lot along with the high Ab.
The other problem that I see is that we always play this piece last. I am the only picc player during the rest of the concert pieces. So, these other two pull out their piccs and play this last piece. They have no way of tuning beforehand, and alothough their Bb may have been in tune before the concert started, and hour later... who knows what to expect!
I personally think it would be best if one person played it the first time through when the band's volume is softer and then the others joined in the second time. Someone here mentioned that idea earlier and I liked it.
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Patrick
(1515 points)
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I have a suggestion, rather than stop and tune individual notes, it is easier to get together with the other picc players and play some simple scales and intervals in unison to get used to playing in tune with each other, that way, everyone will get used to being in tune with themselves, which is the only way playing with a tuner will make sense
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Tibbiecow
(301 points)
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When the director stops you to tune, ASK to tune that Eb.
It is a LOT to ask of the other players to pick up a cold instrument at the end of the concert and play it in tune.
This is what I do in my communtiy band, where I generally only play piccolo for one piece, the principal usually has the piccolo parts during most of the concert. I will play the flute part on the preceding piece on my piccolo (down an octave, so it matches the flute part.) This way, I can get myself warmed up and in tune without being really obvious.
I really hate having to pick up a cold picc and 'tune' it to a Bb. It doesn't work- the picc will respond differently when it is warmed up, so really the only solution to the cold, out-of-tune piccolo problem is to warm them up.
If I am not the only picc, I actually try NOT to tune at the same time as the other player. We can, and do, manage to play well in tune together- we have done lots of duets for practice-, but this generally happens as we listen and adjust within the piece. We start with a tuner. Then we can match a quick A-but if we try more (the 3rd, the 5th, now a Bb, etc), something will stick out and the director will try to tune us better. That puts us on the spot and makes us nervous, which tends to make things worse.
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Micron
(1476 points)
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Make a show piece out of each of you paying every third bar.
As part of the performance, you could make (appropriate!)gestures as you pass the melody to eachother. :-)
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