Can someone give me a couple reasons why people bomb gemeinhardt flutes and praise yamaha.Im a beginner and i bought my 3b gemeinhart off ebay and have tried a friends yamaha one time and couldnt c a difference

thx

#1 Because they are not made as well as they could be.
#2. Mechanism is sloppier and slower.
#3. Does not hold adjustments like Yamaha flutes do.
#4 Most people will say that the Yamaha`s headjoint design is better as where the Gemeinhardt`s head tends to be weaker and fuzzier sounding. I must stress this though, this does not go for all flutist. Some do get a better sound off of a Gemeinhardt.

Either way, if you are a beginner on a flute, either brand is fine. You won`t be able to notice a huge difference in sound until you get more experience under your belt.

Now over to you Picko... lol!

Soory, that is PiKo. I should know that by now!

But which flute is better quality: Gemeinhardt or Yamaha overall?

I had a Yamaha one time as loaner flute because my Gemeinhardt was in the shop (I think) and I HATED IT!!

If you hated it, then it most likely was out of adjustment.
Most flute teachers will say Yamaha is better.

And I can`t imagine any experienced technician thinking Gemeinhardt was better. Student flutes, that is. Professional flutes are a completely different topic, and I suggest Yamaha would win for most people again.

However, I find Gemeinhardts, once they are properly set up, to be a reliable, robust student flute. I just hate the fuzzy tone and lack of volume. (But I have no idea if a new model in the last year or three has improved)

Because of their well-earned reputation here, my country has pretty well given up buying them. But then again, they were priced here much the same as Yamaha.

Okay, I am not even going to comment on that one.
...and back to you Ed!

The first paragraph is so ridiculous I should not comment on it but for the sake of beginner who wants to make a wise choice:

1. It a volume issue. It is no problem to get a non-fuzzy tone from a Gemeinhardt when playing `mf`. However there reaches a point about `f` where there is no more volume available. When the player attempts to play louder, all that gets louder is a `fuzzy` sound, not unlike the sound of a toilet flushing. This is a very well known phenomenon, and a person VERY well versed in the acoustics of the flute can carry out several operations to largely correct it. This issue has recently been covered in great technical depth recently in another forum, by a flute acoustics expert, Joe Butkevicus. The acoustic science terminology gets me lost very fast. Pico, I think that on this issue you are expressing ignorance with far too much confidence. Just my opinion of course.

2. When I have serviced a flue I play test it, adjusting embouchure to get the best that that flute can give. I have enough skill and experience as a flute player to be very versatile at this. I have play-tested well over a thousand different MODELS of flute. Quite frankly, I find the Pico comment insulting. I may be no expert at evaluating the minute nuances of professional flutes (which in my mind are so small as to need double blind testing, for ANYONE, to have any validity), but I lack little for comparing student flutes.

The comment was easy to condescendingly trot off, and without a live demonstration, it is much the equivalent of saying "you are one of the set of rather useless, inflexible flute players, while I am in the set of superior, versatile ones." with finger firmly pressing up on nose.

In a forum you can write of YOUR experience, and I can write of mine, but you have no right at all to write of mine. It is arrogant.

1. It a volume issue. It is no problem to get a non-fuzzy tone from a Gemeinhardt when playing `mf`. However there reaches a point about `f` where there is no more volume available. When the player attempts to play louder, all that gets louder is a `fuzzy` sound, not unlike the sound of a toilet flushing. This is a very well known phenomenon.

I`m afraid this isn`t a known or common phenomenon. Gemeinhardt flutes certainly wouldn`t be very popular in the US nor would I ever have played one were that the case.


and a person VERY well versed in the acoustics of the flute can carry out several operations to largely correct it. This issue has recently been covered in great technical depth recently in another forum, by a flute acoustics expert, Joe Butkevicus. The acoustic science terminology gets me lost very fast.

Volume is a headjoint cut issue. I believe Joe mentioned that undercutting is sufficient to correct most of the shortfalls of Gemeinhardts standard headjoint.

Pico, I think that on this issue you are expressing ignorance with far too much confidence. Just my opinion of course.

You are flame baiting. Stop it. That deserves no other response

I find the Pico comment insulting.
...
The comment was easy to condescendingly trot off, and without a live demonstration, it is much the equivalent of saying "you are one of the set of rather useless, inflexible flute players, while I am in the set of superior, versatile ones." with finger firmly pressing up on nose.
In a forum you can write of YOUR experience, and I can write of mine, but you have no right at all to write of mine. It is arrogant.

If you are upset at the suggestion that people who play on Gemeinhardt flutes do not have those issues and that people who don`t... DO. You should not bring that subject up again.

None of what I wrote should have been construed as a person attack on your playing. Merely an overall view that if you are accustomed to a certain flute style you will may have hangups upon another.

Okay, I preface this with my relative LACK of experience compared to some/many others.....so...here I go.
Over the past I have played some and heard many Gemeinhardt flutes.

I do NOT like the sound when I play on the particular Gem. flutes that I have played. It is definitely fuzzy. Keep in mind that I haven`t played on all the different heads etc.

But, more to the point, I absolutely do not like the tone difference that happened to a cohort of mine when she bought a Gemeinhardt. Fuzzy and weak. She sounded great prior to the change. It is noticed even by non-flute players. At first I thought the sound guy was messing up, but that wasn`t the case.

This is anecdotal perception, and not intended as scientific empirical evidence.

1. I stress again (and again!) that my comments relate to the student models. I can only believe that unaware of the Gemeinhardt fuzzy sound is talking about a model I have not met.
2. May I humbly suggest that Gemeinhardts are popular in USA because they are robust, there is good marketing, and they are relatively cheap, and they are "Made in USA". Outside USA, I think you would struggle to find common usage nowadays, although they once enjoyed popularity when there was little competition.

After many months of not using my Gemeinhardt head, even I going back to it am extremely breathy. However I had no breathy-ness problems while it was my regular head.

And even switching between a few different head I was even breathier on a buffet, somewhat breathy on my Armstrong, and I developed minor breathy-ness on my Natsuki from playing on different heads.

I`ve heard many students play fabulously on Gemeinhardts without breathiness in tone. It was because others around me played Gemeinhardts and recommended then above others that I chose a Gemeinhardt flute.

Likewise I have heard abhorrently breathy tones from people who have Yamahas (one specific person though), my flute instructor played a professional Gold Yamaha... and switched to a Powell and felt that there was no comparison. (She also recommends Pearls though )

The cause of horrid breathy tones?

Insufficient practice time on ones instrument of choice.

One of the better flute players in my old high school played a no-name flute from a pawn shop. One of the worst, section leader by seniority even, played a Yamaha.

Heck at the time I was playing an Armstrong that I was always chasing loose screws with and I played better than the lot (this is highschool) and when I started private lessons and even went to a scholarship audtions... I found I was SEVERELY outclassed. Absolutely amazing competition.

Everyone must go to a flute scholarship audition in a major city before deciding to major in flute performance.

Now not to pick on Yamaha specifically... but Gem and Yam are what we`re comparing. I suppose if I favored Yams one could easily just switch the words Gem and Yam around and throughout this thread and it would still be true.

Every time this topic comes up you write about fancy heads. They are a red herring in this discussion, as I keep on stressing (again and again) that I write only of student models of Gemeinhardt. Please tell, exactly which model is your Gemeinhardt flute head off.

"The cause of horrid breathy tones?
.....Insufficient practise time on ones instrument of choice."

Well, not really. This is only one possible cause. Another is a poorly designed flute. I know that I could doctor a flute embouchure hole so that NO player could play it clearly. Some old wooden flute heads demonstrate this admirably. An experiment that could demonstrate it just a little is to try playing your flute with the crown cork removed.

You are as good as saying that anybody can get used to any head and play it clearly. That is far fetched to say the least.

On the 2M GEmeinhardts, extra high on the fuzziness scale, I undercut the embouchure hole and greatly improved them. The 2ESP, a more recent model, was not as clear as my doctored 2Ms. I don`t think your Gem head could be one of those 2Ms.

"One of the worst, section leader by seniority even, played a Yamaha."

Statements like this really undermine your credibility, because obviously, a lousy player will play EVERY flute in a fuzzy way. You can demonstrate this by trying the best flute you can find, and play it while pulling your lips really tight against your teeth.

I don`t think this conversation is really going anywhere unless each of us can personally demonstrate what we actually mean by clear, fuzzy, and loud volume, which will not happen. For all I know, what I call mf and fuzzy may be what you call loud and clear. We just don`t know.

The fact is that there is GENERAL consensus among capable flute players that student Gemeinhardts are rather fuzzy sounding. This keeps appearing in each flute forum I have been to.

"One of the worst, section leader by seniority even, played a Yamaha."

Must be read in context. It was not the Yamaha, but the player.

My Gemeinhardt head is a standard model J. I`ve spoken about it often enough and referenced it as the "problem" head above.

The Natsuki is the only professional head I own. The others Buffet... Armstrong... Gemeinhardt are well known student.

Whew...

The only disagreement I have with anything being said above is that Buffet is a good student model. Unless the company has seriously worked on its flute models in the last few years, they have not been considered reputable flutes in the past.

Here is my personal opinion on this whole debate. The simple fact of the matter is anything that is produced in mass numbers has a chance of not being of good quality. I doubt any flute brand that is considered a student model has been lovingly fitted, measured, and play tested by someone who is proud of the work they are completeing. When it comes down to it, the bottom line is how much money the company is making. Can they pop out a large quantity of instruments in a short amount of time to make the most money?

I wish this were simply not the case, but the fact is when you buy any student model instrument you are paying for what you get. I have personally known some people who adore their Gemeinhardt flutes. I am not a big fan, but that is my personal preference. I have played an Emerson for a very long time that was an upgraded student model. However, my most recent flute student had a student Emerson and the embouchre (sp) hole was crooked.