A nut! I did not notice that.

Sure that`s why the cork seems so firm in place. And you say the nut cannot be turned to get it loose!. It`s getting complicated. I would rather not drill a hole to make it turn, it`s beyond my audacity so far...

P. Hermann has answered but he is too busy to have a look at the instrument before March. But he gave me the name of one friend that is in Madrid and could help.

Philip has a nice web page and Forums, but everything is in Spanish. (normal, he is in Andalucia (Flamingo and all that!)

If you want to practice foreign languages, this is the link : http://www.felcomusical.com

His site is very interesting, he even has a price list for different repairs.

The cork is sandwiched between two metal disks. One disk generally has a threaded rod going through the cork to the crown. The other disk has the female threads to go over the rod and tighten the cork sandwiching the cork between. TOn some flutes, the disk that screws down on the rod has a raised part so that it can be tightened easier. ON some it`s just a threaded hole through the disk. Then the only way to tighten it is to remove the cork assembly from the ehad joint and tighten that disk unless you drill a couple of holes or solder some kind of a nut to the disk. ASide from the fact that it`s very difficult to get any leverage a few centimeters into a flute head joint, I would not tighten that disk while the cork is in the head joint because you are then fighting the tension of the cork against the tube.

I think that your main problem is getting that pad or any others that you aren`t aware of to seal properly. Then worry about the cork location.

~Bilbo
N.E.Ohio

I agree,bilbo.

I have started practising with a paper feeler and have found two pads apparently with problems. But I must still work on the method until I`m more confident on the findings.

I will also try with a light from inside, once I get one suitable.

I have also noticed that the small cork pad that push the level from rh key bank to the lh bank also plays a role. If it is worn out the Bb pad will not close properly when the middle key (of the low E finger combination) is pressed. I think this is also happening

The cork/crown issue may come later, if fixing the pad problem is not enough. Now I understand the bulding of the cork assembly; it was not evident if you do not know.

I`m not going to touch the cork position now, but I`m curious and I don`t fully understand your explanation. I list below the concepts as I understand them, one by one so that you can see where the error in my reasoning could be:

1. The cork assembly is made of 3 parts:

. a round flat plate (facing the blow hole) with the screw welded on the crown-looking side
. a real cork with a hole in the middle (for the screw)
. a round flat plate with a threaded hole, (facing the end with the crown)

2. the real cork is compressed between both plates by screwing on the plate with the threaded hole

3. the assembly is then pushed from the end with the joint tenon until it reaches its position (inserting from the crown side would be difficult because of the head taper the other)

4. once the assembly is at the right place, the plate facing the crown may be further tightened in case the cork is not sufficiently pressed and the system leaks.

Now my conclusions:

a. if we call "longitudinal" the long direction of the head and "transversal" the direction of the head diameter:

. when pushing the cork assembly in the direction approaching the crown, the real cork inside it must be compressed transversally and not longitudinally, as the head has a pronounced taper.

. If the cork material is compressed transversally, it will fit the head diameter and not leak. However, part of the cork material will try to expand longitudinally and therefore increasing the pressure against both plates

b. I cannot imagine how could the internal plate "rattle" in this condition.

c. If later the cork assembly must be moved towards the blow hole, the head diameter increases (taper) and the cork inside the assembly will fit less and could eventually leak.

d. to correct this, the assembly should be re-tightened, so that the increased longitudinal pressure causes the real cork to expand and fit again (if we are lucky).

Now this is how I imagine it to work. According whay I understand of you kind explanations, it seems to be different.

In any case, I have re-inspected the plates (from both sides, but the internal side is seen from too far obviously) and do not see any hole or nut. The paltes are completely flat and I wonder how could they tighten the assembly at the factory (once it was inserted in the head) and also, how you, experience technicians manage to loosen it so that it can slide to a new position (at least in the GMH M2).

May be at the factory they use a very strong (with active vacuum) suction cup to stick to the flat plate and then make it turn?

Thank you Micron. Your message was received loud and clear.

I hope this discussion and the very important information that you so kindly provided, could also be of interest for other members and visitors of this Forum.

Re: The cork.
I`m probably going out on a limb here with Micron and why not I ask.... but I see no reason why the manufactures don`t insert the cork initially like vintners do it in their wine bottles. They boil the cork until it`s very pliable, they insert it into the bottle more easily without glues or waxes on the sides of the cork and as it dries out it becomes fairly stiff with a tight seal (Usually). For a wine to have a loose cork is a death sentence and the result is expensive vinegar. With a pliable cork in this manner the two plates can much more easily compress, the cork expands outwards making it thicker and the cork can still be inserted with much less stress.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

On the vein of this thread, I have a Yamaha 581 that I bought used. It had a ripple on the lever beneath the Bb 1 key on the right hand but I figured it was just cosmetic because the flute played beautifully. However after about a month the instrument began leaking-I got it repadded, and adjusted and it seemed to work fine again. Month 2 rolls around and it`s leaking again-I let it go for a week or so and then I just can`t play F or Bb. This time I bring it to a guy who is known to be the best wind repairman in the state in which I reside. He tinkers with it and then just the F can`t play-immediately I realized that he just adjusted the screw connecting two of the keys which obviously tilted it to close off one key an make a bigger space over the other. I brought it back to him and he said that unless the felt over the rippled lever was replaced, that it wouldn;t be possible for BOTH to completely seal. I got that fixed, HOWEVER after a few weeks same problem...I`m thinking that the rippled key may be bent and that there is a screw beneath the key work that keeps popping loose as a result.
Should I just take the hit to my wallet and sell the flute, replacing it with the newer equivalent to my model-Yamaha 684? OR should I keep trying to fix it???

Aside from the issue of what is this "ripple" exactly, I`m thinking that you should take the flute back to that repairman and see if he honors his work. Tell him everything about it, including that this problem keeps returning. If that is the older 581, it`s a reasonable good flute and should stay in adjustment for eons like mine does.
~Bilbo

As the "owner" (starter) of this thread, I believe I have abused a little of the patience of the experts replying to my questions.

I also believe that participating in these kind of Forums is a passion, but it`s a highly addictive one.

I like to ask long, detailed and ever-deeper questions and I receive interesting (though not always kind) replies from many, including people that seem somehow forced to reply, even when it`s time consuming for them and possibly also a little annoying.

I do not like this and I had decided to try stopping my participation in all the threads I was active in.

I could not. The addiction is too strong.

But I will try to refrain checking this particular thread for as long I can resist to come back.

As the thread has become popular, with about 64 posts so far, no doubt other people will continue debating and participating. You are welcome to do so.

Thank you again for all the participation and time you have dedicated to my questions. I have learned more in this 2 weeks than I could ever imagine.

Best regards to everybody.

jose_luis,
I wish you the best of luck with your flute search. If I was one that you were referring to as coming of across as being rude, I sincerely apologize.

I love talking about repairs and find it very interesting, so you weren`t a bother in any way. I hope to see you still around in another threads.

If you need any help with finding a flute, don`t hesitate to ask. I love doing research.

Jose_Luis,
To quote your last post:

"As the "owner" (starter) of this thread, I believe I have abused a little of the patience of the experts replying to my questions.

I also believe that participating in these kind of Forums is a passion, but it`s a highly addictive one."

I certainly hope that you get your issues resolved and I`m sure that Micron (and others) does as well. It would also be good to find out here on the forum what happens with your flute. Please let us know about this. I don`t think that anyone`s patience has been worn by answering your questions. If you are reading this into any of the words that were used in replys to your questions, it may not be correct. My only reservation about discussing repair issues is that some young person that may have no aptitude for doing this type of work may try to "Fix" something and make an expensive mess out of it.

I for one would wish that you continue your questions and inform us of your progress.
Best of luck with these issues.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

Sorry. I have re-read my previous post and I think I have been a little bit rude myself. I tried not to address anybody in particular and even less you, Kara.

Bilbo, Micron and all others that have answered me and still show a continued interest in this little problem I have are very nice people and deserve better wording for my answers.

Apart for the inherent difficulty of correctly expressing things in a foreign language, yesterday it was late at night (we have about 6 to 9 hours time difference) and I felt tired and for some reason wrote things I have later regreted.

No doubt I will inform you on the developments (if any) on this old GMH M2 which I feel so attached to.

I cannot send it to repair here, because it will cost more than I paid for it and possibly more than it`s worth now.

I plan to keep it as a backup instrument and will probably buy a better instrument with better projection, better sound and not so difficult to play as the M2 has become in the later weeks.

I also plan to shim the famous pad because I now have the (theoretical) knowledge to try this. As for the other problem with the link between banks for the Bb, I will try a very simple and reversible solution, using a piece of heat-shrinkable tubing on the side that has no cork pad. But this will be obviously after the pad shimmer is installed.

As for the cork position, I believe that I risk severe complications, as I will end up with a loose cork (it has been there, compressed and happy for almost 30 years). And probably it was so set at the factory and most probably it was the optimal position for this particular instrument.

But just to know all these things makes me happy... Thank you all for sharing your rich knowledge with me.

Micron,

We`ve known each other for a while and you and I are not only addicted to helping others- a good thing.... we are also addicted to proving ourselves correct...at any cost...

"Just a small correction.. As I wrote before compressing cork in one direction does not make it expand in another, as do almost all other materials. This is a particular property of cork."

Well I found what you wrote after I stuck my foot in my mouth. BUT remember that if one boils a cork, it has soaked up water and an amazing property of water is that it doesen`t compress. Consequently, when you squeeze a cork lengthwise, the water will do 2 things, it will squeeze out and if it can`t, it will cause the cork to deform in the width. That being written, I don`t think that it expands in the width very much and more often as you very well suggested, a larger diameter cork is needed but I have done the experiment as I state and as we discussed it first about a year ago my friend

BTW: Just had an Armstrong crown off becasue that screw-on plate on the cork assy. was loose and it has a formed hex-nut built into it. Kind of cheap looking but functional.

jose_luis
I think that the thing about repairing your flute is that if you are relatively careful you can`t really hurt it much. If you decide to take it apart, be careful and mind the needle springs so that you don`t break one off. Take your time and keep relaxed.

If the repair costs are high in Spain, one soltion would be to send it to Micron - if you don`t mind the postage to New Zealand he`s really a pretty good repair technician

~Bilbo
N.E.Ohio

Hi guys, no way of resisting to come back. OK, I accept my limitations.

I know lees of flute corks than wine corks, but if the cork (material) absorbed water (or wine) then all the wine bottles kept horizontally for several years would end up in vinegar. And they would drip!

New idea:

(i.e. a new experiment, I`sorry), but reversible and harmless:

I suspect the cork assembly in my flute is too much pushed to the crown end of the head. But I`m reluctant to try moving it because of the reasons already discussed.

But if I made a kind of suplement (say, 3mm cork round piece with diameter as close as the internal diameter of the head (measured from outside less 2 times the metal width), then glue a 1 mm thick metal round plate to one side of it and then push this invention until it touches the cork assembly? (metal side to the blow hole)

To remove it I could use a "suction cup" made of a plastic tubing and sucking from the other end or I previously I could attach a sort of plastic string (such as fish line) to the suplemrnt so, that I can push the gadget from the head end.

So I could test the sound and decide what to do in case it improves (or worsens..)

What do you think?

I have already dis-assembled the banks a couple of times and the needle springs are OK.

Anyway I follow your recs and will be very careful

Could not imagine Micron was New Zeland. That`s really far from here (and from most parts, I guess). Sure it would cost more to ship a flute there from Madrid and back than buying a new one. I could better ship it to Ohio (jk).

Micron,

"regarding cork and water, and thinking out loud. (I don`t recall a previous conversation about it.)" Hmmm...Must have been a different Micron then.

"It still floated very high, which means that it is largely still filled with air, so the issue of compression of water that you mention is a red herring."

I generally immerse the cork for about 45 minutes or more in relatively warm water. This means making it not float for that time. The cork then becomes very spongey and full of water. I believe that it would still float but only about 1/2 or less floating. THe rest is submerged.

"If cork did absorb (significant)water, then it could not be used for floats for nets in the sea."

Fish net or trap floats are often coated with something to be more recognizeable as to the owner and they aren`t immersed for great lengths of time like weeks or more.

The wine cork is porus and stays a bit wet when the bottle is properly stored but doesen`t allow the fairly large organisms and oxygen to enter the bottle:
From http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm

"A second group of bacteria of importance in food fermentations are the acetic acid producers from the Acetobacter species. Acetobacter are important in the production of vinegar (acetic acid) from fruit juices and alcohols. The same reaction also occurs in wines, oxygen permitting, where the acetobacter can cause undesirable changes – the oxidation of alcohol to acetic acid. This produces a vinegary off-taste in the wine."

Bilbo
N.E. Ohio