Hello,

Wow, I'm suprised by myself that I'm asking such a question now... I should've asked about 2 years ago.

When I started the flute, I was absolutely positive that tongueing with the flute was impossible, but I eventually learnt to tongue. Now, I notice that my method of tongueing, by striking my top lips with the tip of my tongue, makes an airy start and finish to the note, and slow response because I'm probably cutting off the airway fully.

What's the proper place to strike when tongueing? Or how do you guys do it to have nice clean notes? Btw, I have an overbite, and my top teeth and out at an angle (don't over imagine!) so I can't really hit my teeth that good if thats what youre supposed to do...

Thanks!

Well no wonder you are having problems with tonguing! You are supposed to tongue behind your top teeth. That is why you are getting an airy sound. Have you never had a teacher?

I always tell my students to say D when first learning tonguing on the flute. This seems the easiest and uses a cleaner attack.

AHh, yes. Thanks Kara...
Nope, no teacher, I just played in a school band with the worst director, ever. We all practically taught ourselves with the help of... a book. Almost no suggestions by the director. Well, I'll have to be practicing hard! Hm, actually my tongueing's wierd... I start off striking the top lip, and after a few seconds of playing I start striking the end of my front 2 teeth...

Anyways, thanks!

AHh, yes. Thanks Kara...
Nope, no teacher, I just played in a school band with the worst director, ever. We all practically taught ourselves with the help of... a book. Almost no suggestions by the director. Well, I'll have to be practicing hard! Hm, actually my tongueing's wierd... I start off striking the top lip, and after a few seconds of playing I start striking the end of my front 2 teeth...

Thanks Kara!

<Added>

Ahaha, sorry, double post with different endings... I'm not sure how that happened!

I have a student who only learned in band and has the same problem, I agree with kara, usually teach "du" tonguing, "tu" as well, but not on fast repeated notes.If you learn in France, you would have been taught to articulate between the lips.

"If you learn in France, you would have been taught to articulate between the lips." Patrick,

I've learned to do this here in the backwoods of Ohio as well. I actually aim for the bottom lip with the tip of the tongue. It's not airy sounding and is actually a bit more efficient than behind the top teeth. It does take a better sense of embouchure that if the player isn't using well, can sound airy. I think that all forms of tonguing have their place but behind the teeth generally produces a less clean attack than the lips.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

I should continue.
That if one is tonguing, it should have no effect on the tone quality unless when tonguing behind the lips the tongue is being too forcefull, going out too far and making the lips more open. I would suggest aiming the tip of the tongue at the center of the lip opening or below it and practicing for lightness where the tongue just flicks behind the opening. Teeth apart like there is an egg in your mouth, top lip down and bottom lip forward. Don't blow through your teeth like you are saying "Feee".

Many young people at your point usually hold the flute too tightly against the chin. This can cause the top lip to be above the hole in the lip plate and way in front of the bottom lip. This makes the airstream too large and angled down.

There are many studies available for tongue exercises. Anything with repeated notes can be used. Practice scales for example.
Repeat scale notes. Bb -8 times, C -8 times, D -8 times, Eb -8 times......, go up and down. Then 4 times, 2X, 1 time on each note. Listen for clarity and cover the complete range of the flute. Do this carefully and listen well for a clean sound.

I started flute behind the teeth and moved to behind the lips. Now I can use either or even on the roof of the mouth like saying "la". Or try double tonguing (Like saying, Too-Koo reapeated and fast.)

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

Wow, thanks Bilbo!
Always love the informative responses.

I think I'll stick with my lip tongueing for now, because when I try to hit my teeth, it just doesnt work... I'm supposing its the overbite, cause my tongue can't hit firmly on the teeth without slipping off. I'll be getting braces soon, so that'll change, a lot of things I suppose! The "la" tongueing Bilbo said with hitting the roof of my mouth does sound a lot nicer, and I'm guessing I'll practice with that when I get the braces!

Riki,
From what you are saying about the overbite, that may be affecting your overall tone and your tongueing. As Bilbo siad, if the upper lip is too far forward (from the overbite), then your airstream may be affected, perhaps making it too airy. The same may hold true with your tongueing technique.

The structure of the oral cavity (mouth) has an impact on our speech (and singing), so it makes sense that it also has an impact on our flute tone.

Be sure to thank your parents extensively for their decision to pay for your braces! Braces are very expensive, not covered by most insurance plans, yet have such a significant impact on a person's life. I am considering taking on another job just to get my youngest some braces.

An overbite is another thing that can get in the way of playing. What I'm saying is that to play with less airiness, one needs to have an airstream that isn't too large. The sirstream needs to be focused into a small ribbon of air that may be shaped like a piece of linguini comming out of your mouth. If your lips don't meet well then this airstream isn't going to be focused or if the top lip is more forward of the bottom one then when you try to close your lips as in playing a higher note, the airstream is going to change direction angling more down and the tone quality will suffer. One common reason is that people tend to push the flute against the bottom lip harder than they need to, causing the bottom lip to flatten out, the top lip is ahead of the bottom one and then problems. The resulting tone problems are similar to an overbite but it is not exactly the same.

The "la" attack is used for softer legato tongueing as in where there is a slur mark over a string of notes with a staccato dot also over them.

One can argue that the inside of our mouths and shape of the nose has an impact upon the flute tone as in singing but I'm not so sure. THe shape of the air stream os most important to producing the tone. It can be called an air brush or air reed and the height, width,length, speed, the direction angle as it applies to the embouchure hole on the head joint are all the most important factors in flute tone. What we can't always see is that if we move our tongue or our jaw, it can change the airstream in some very small way that affects tone. What we can't always hear as players is what the tone sounds like to the listener in the audience. The flute tone sounds different to the player and listener as their voice sounds different to them in a quality recording. This is where a qualified coach is necessary that can tell a good flute tone and good projection from bad.

I repeat: Teeth apart like there is an egg in your mouth, top lip down and bottom lip forward. Don't blow through your teeth with your jaw clenched like you are saying "Feee".
I actually aim for the bottom lip with the tip of the tongue. Practice for a focused tone while tongueing (especially on low notes) and your tone will improve all over. Don't strike the tongue. It's really not an attack. When you remove the tongue from the lips or behind the teeth, then the airstream is able to move forward and your flute can make a sound.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

Bilbo;
I think we are actually saying very similar things. My point is this: the shape (and subsequent function) of the oral cavity and oral-motor structures has a HUGE impact on whatever comes out of it.

Definitely singing is affected (hence why Barbara Striesand has always refused to get a "nose job"), but it will also affect how we can obtain a "perfect", or at least effective, airstream to produce a good tone while playing flute.

The degree of overbite can have a huge effect, depending on how much stretch the upper lip must go through to cover the lips and be in a good position for the airstream.

It may be a moot point, because the OP may only have a slight overbite.

But for the record, the shape of the oral cavity (such as degree of vault in the palate, tongue mobility, and tongue control) can make it nearly impossible to easily direct an airstream required for good flute tone. People with those issues would have great difficulty producing a good tone.

No argument. We are saying the same things. ...exccept that in the case of singers, the vibrating tone producing instrument is inside the body and before the oral cavity. This gives the singer's makeup s to their nasal, oral, throat, and respiratory system much more effect on thier tone quality. I'm not totally in disagreement that these things have an affect on flute tone and I've seen writings that state that they do in fact but what I'm saying is that they may not have as much effect on our tone as they may on the airstream shape. If someone tells you to "drop your jaw & open your throat" it may make a more open stronger sound because it may make the hole in the embouchure and consequently the airstream shape taller. On the other hand I don't discount the shape of the inside of the mouth. This is why I suggest to some to try the tongueing behind the lips. Especially if they have naturally found this path from the beginning. Aside from the fact that this is from the "French School" where many of our great players have been spawned, It lowers the back of the tongue out of the way of the airstream.

I also think that too much emphasis is put on the diaphragham type breathing. One needs to remember that if the rib cage isn't expanded moderately, then inhaling through the stomach (or however they describe it) will be rather limiting. See how well trained singers breathe. (Not those sickly pop singers) Their chest/ribs are expanded moderately. This gives more breath support, resonance to the tone and makes it easier to inhale a larger quantity of air. Now, with the nasal cavities we are stuck so to speak. They can't/shouldn't be modified. If one is congested, it affects our tone or more importantly, our perception of our tone. Since many of the drugs for congestion can affect our mental and our muscle response adversely, the only reasonable cure as far as I'm concerned is an extra dose of vitamin C and rest.

What can have the most affect on tone quality for a young player aside form having a good flute is to be able to hear a great flutist up close and live. To actually see and hear how they play and form their embouchure as they play the notes is most valueable. One of the amazing things about modern society is the transportation of information and the internet. We have so much more available these days. I just heard and talked to Mathieu Dufour at our local flute fest. 30 years ago, I would have had to drive for about 10 hours to Chicago to hear this guy play. They didn't have flute fests arond here 30 years ago. Today, one can go to Galway's web site and listen to Galway work the daylights out of his embouchure on MP3 files while practicing things like Saint Saens', "The Swan". I can fairly well imagine now from just listening to him on a recording like this exactly what he is doing with his embouchure and the goal of his practice. Just some morning thoughts....
Forgive my long winded ramblings.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio