I would like to be able to do this for a few reasons: for example, to be able to compare the effect of the relatively poor body of the M2 on a good headjoint and viceversa.

But the Gemeinhardt headjoint is slightly fatter than the Yamaha, so it does not fit. Neither does the GMH foot, and I would like to try the YFL with a C foot.

Would it too much insane to to have the tenons of the Gemeinhardt M2 modified to do this?

If feasible, would it cost much money?

What is the best mechanical procedure (if any) to have it done? (no, I am not doing it myself, but would like to know the options when taking the M2 to the technician).

I could measure the tenons of both YFL and M2 and post the results, in case it would help on giving your opinions.

Thanks!

Micron, I do my best to introduce new topics that I find interesting or that I am curious about. I also try -sometimes- to divert the subject of a gone-wild thread by introducing positive comments or entirely new subjects, but that seldom works. It`s a good technique with children, but we adults seem to love sticking to the negative part of things.

Coming back to the shrinking, my idea was slightly different:

I would like to have both the headjoint tenon + the body barrel bore + body foot side tenon + the foot bore, all shrunk to the YFL size.

I mean, it this was possible I could use then any headjoint or foot with any flute body.

Also, there would be no need to expand the GMH to its original size.

Right now, both are very close, as you say possibly microns away; I can fit and play the GMH with the YFL head, though a little too loose and the HJ rotates too easily and can make my embouchure fail after a while. The other way round (GMH HJ on the YFL) is not possible. Same thing with the foot.

Now, is it possible to shrink the body and foot bores (the "female" part of a joint, in case I am using a wrong name for it) or it can only be done with tenons (as I understand is the right name for the "male" part of a joint?

Of course I would do it only on the GMH M2, which is all made of a sort of plated brass.

I could take profit of a next opportunity when I will have both flutes taken to a friend technician.

Only detail is that the guy is at 12,000 Km from here and there and so will be no second chances for quite a while...

Sorry, I notice (too late) that the right name for what I call "bore" is "tenon receiver". I know it for the next time!

I would like to have both the headjoint tenon + the body barrel bore + body foot side tenon + the foot bore, all shrunk to the YFL size. I mean, it this was possible I could use then any headjoint or foot with any flute body.

Gemeinhardt headjoints are about the largest out there, they will fit heavy wall muramatsus and that's about it. You may have to shrink that gemeinhardt more than is practical for a yamaha. You will have to severly thin the tenon in most cases or risk ridging the tenon with a shrinking die..

You cannot use any headjoint or foot with any flute body. The body ID is fairly standard, but what varies is tubing thickness. Barrels and boxes are made to accomodate thinner or thicker tubes to maintain the bore properly at the joints. Altering those dimensions will change the original playing characteristics. (A small amount for things that are close is allright...but a Gemmie to a yamaha seems rather a lot to me)

If you want to exchange headjoints for any flute, the best thing would be to have a changeable barrel. (Have an idea on how to make one practical, but no time to implement the idea..)

Why would you want to put an M2 headjoint on a 674H???? That's a rather odd combination. Those two designs are drasticly different scalings. Your yamaha will not play very well in tune with an M2 on it.....especially with the amount of modification you'll need to make it fit..

Joe B

right you are Joe

I see my idea is not practical. I did not take into account the scaling problem, apart from the mechanical issues.

Does this scaling problem also apply to the foot?

The GMH foot fits well on the YFL, not too lose, a little bit strange considering the situation with the headjoint.

So I could test the scaling myself, were my ear trained to detect differences at these low notes (which is not).

The problem is, that in a way I was "forced" to buy a B foot I do not need (no C foot model available in the USA for this model of instrument, with an acceptable lead. I was asked 12+ months at Flute World for the same model with C foot).

Just for curiosity, I measured the diameters of both head joint tenons. I used a micrometer:

Gemeinhardt M2: 19.728 mm
Yamaha YFL 674H: 19.675 mm

<Added>

Sorry,this line was left out when doing the copy/paste:

"The measurements were difficult and somewhat unreliable so they may be erroneous, probably by +/- 0.02 mm. Do they come close to the expected or known sizes?"

Jose Luis,
If you look on www.usedflutes.com you will find an older want ad from a flute re-seller asking to trade Yamaha B-footjoints for Yamaha C-footjoints. I would get in touch with her (Liz is her name, and I have done business with her). She would probably be able to sell you a Yamaha C-foot for a reasonable price. If Liz can't help you, then you could post there for a Yamaha C-foot. Finding a sterling silver one with pointed arms, from the newer-model (674 instead of, say, 581) flutes might be difficult. Usedflutes will also get you soooo many scam emails that you would probably want to set up a 'throwaway' email address for this purpose.
I agree with the others, it is not worth your time to try to use 'parts' from your Gemeinhardt flute.
I have taken a lower-quality headjoint that already fits my Yamaha 881, to see if a nicer flute body makes a difference. It does not.
However, using my good headjoint in the other flute body did make a big difference. The key is to have instruments which are very close in diameter as well as scale.
A little teflon-tape can be used on the tenon of a headjoint so that you can try it on a larger-barrelled flute. The teflon tape will not damage the headjoint or the flute barrel, and will 'firm up' the fit without leaks.

However, some statements above made me curious, especially as I have never had a tenon ridge when I shrink it. (Unless I somehow misunderstand the meaning of 'ridge')

Well not everyone is you or me Micron, and I have seen a bunch of over zealous techs attempt to shrink a headjoint a lot and leave a crinkle where the shriking die is open. (that's the ridge I'm talking about and it's near impossible to remove once it's done)

As far as the measurments are concerned, I don't trust them if a micrometer was used on the headjoint. They are completely inacurate that way due to flex in the headjoint and other factors relating to thewear on the tenon. You need to measure the thickness of the tube at the crown end and fit a plug in (tightly) to measure the OD of the socket (forcing it round) for an accurate measurement.

The M2 and yamaha are completely different scales and pitch. The hole with respect to the taper are in a completely different locations for them to work decently. Not to mention the overall resultant location of the embouchure hole in the grand scheme of things...

Joe B

Thank you all!. I now understand much better the nature of the problems for such an hybrid.

I also understand that my request may look odd to technicians and experimented performers, so I will ellaborate a little:

One of the reasons to try the experiment was protecting the YFL silver body and foot against theft or damage during the holiday season.

I plan to take the flute with me and practise as much as possible, so not to degrade my embouchure and fingering too much. We have long holidays here (more than a month) and we usually spend at least 30 days travelling in Europe or staying at hotels or campings at the beach or similar places. Sometimes they are not as safe as I wished.

I said to myself, that taking just the Gemeinhardt with me for holidays (I plan to have it fixed by a technician byend of June) was safer, but it would prevent me practising with the EC cut, on which I have been slowly but positively improving.

A combination of the expensive silver YFL headjoint with the cheap brass body and foot of the GMH was a safer bet to carry around. Poor scaling should not be a problem for just daily practise while on travel.

But as the GMH tenon sockets cannot be modified easily (only the tenons, as I understand it) my plan is not feasible.

So I will only take the full Gemeinhardt with me during the holidays, I do not want to put the Yamaha at risk right now.

Thank you anyway.

A combination of the expensive silver YFL headjoint with the cheap brass body and foot of the GMH was a safer bet to carry around. Poor scaling should not be a problem for just daily practise while on travel.

If that's what you want to do, just do the teflon tape addition on the Yamaha headjoint as Tibbiecow suggested. You'll probably have to pull the headjoint out a little more than you usually do, but that would be simple to do and doesn't require any physical modifications to the head or flute.

Joe B

OK; it is a very good idea. I will try and decide what to do.

Could you please clarify the solution:

Do you both suggest I put teflon tape in the outer side of the tenon (so that the Teflon fills the space between tenon and receiver or just wrap teflon tape on the outside, covering part of the barrel and part ot the headjoint (so that there are no leaks and the headjoint cannot rotate)?

The space to fill is about 0,027mm (each side), might be too little for teflon tape, I don't know.

They mean to wrap the tape on the outside of the tenon so as to fill the gap between the tenon and the receiver. This is standard practice when testing headjoints prior to purchase, as not every head fits every flute perfectly.

Jose Luis,
Put the tape on the headjoint tenon only. If the EC can rotate in the Gem. flute, you should have no problem, but make sure the teflon tape stretches a bit as you apply it, and start with one layer. Add a bit more tape if need be. The stuff is so cheap, that you can experiment to get the 'perfect fit', and you will not damage the silver or the tenon.

I had a Gemeinhardt 3SHB that I took with me traveling, that would not have been a tremendous loss if it were stolen or damaged. The better I got, the more the difference in scale annoyed me.

I wanted a flute that would fit my good headjoint to travel with, and so I sold the Gem. intending to buy a used Yamaha 200 series in good condition for a backup and travel flute.

I bought a Pearl 501E instead, and it has been perfect for the job. I even get a nice sound on its stock P-5J headjoint. This may be something for you to consider, especially since a used Pearl 500 or Yamaha 200 in good condition would 1) be a good fit for your headjoints and 2) provide you with a C-foot flute, combined with your EC headjoint, for less than the cost of buying a spare footjoint for your YFL-674. The scale would probably also be quite close to your 674.
I have a brand-new Pearl 501-E on consignment at the local music store if you are interested.
Tibbie

Thanks Tibbie,

For the moment I cannot spend more on flutes. I have just started to pay back the bank credit I took to buy the EC! Surely later, I see that I am starting to be interested in different headjoints and combinations.

Fot this holydays I thinkt I will try the teflon tape solution (have still to get some and try).

I also used a micrometer with the ratchet. But several factors made the measurements more inconsistent in my case, compared to those as reported by Micron:

- it was difficult to place the micrometer with the measuring faces exactly perpendicular to the tenon. I believe micrometers are more suited to measuring small diameter wires than big tubes as a tenon is. Probably a digital caliper would be better, short of the precise method of using a plug for the socket, measuring the tube wall thickness, etc. But I do not have a digital caliper right now.
- in the case of the YFL, the tube wall is so thin (just 440 grams the whole instrument with its B foot!) that no matter that I applied just the pressure allowed by the ratchet, it produced some ovalling of the tenon. I even feared it could become permanent and degrade the fit with its socket!
- I don´t have the necessary practise
- I was too lazy to average 4 measurements...