Just found this site. Searched for info but couldn't find a clear cut answer to my question - so I thought I would ask.

A play in a small orchestra that has, at times, 5 flautists. One member recently purchased a yamaha (not sure of the model - open holed, b-foot, silver)that she plays proudly. But she seems to be further out of tune now then before. Is this because of the different pitch I keep reading about (but don't fully understand) and if so, what can I do to help her tune?

Thanks

Hi and welcome to the forum

So, if I read that correctly, you are saying that she didn't have problems with intonation before she purchased this new Yamaha? I have always had a hard time with the scale on all the Yamaha flutes I have ever played on while some people have had no problems at all. I don't like the scale they use at all personally. Have her take a look at the position of her cork for starters. Is she running sharp most the time? That is usually the case on them. I am sure she is doing the already, but if not, have her work with her embouchure to adapt to her new flute and experiment with how far to push in or pull out the headjoint. Even if it is a new flutes, it is possible that it did not come from the factory 100% set up properly and could have a small leak which can also cause problems with pitch. I hope that helps.

I have to say that I have difficulty with Yamaha's scale too. I play a Yamaha 581 as a back up flute, and it is so much more difficult than my Tom Green (which is built on the Bennett scale). It does take time to adjust, even when moving to a flute with a better scale (it took me about a month to learn to stop doing all the contortions that were necessary with the Yamaha once I got my Tom Green), so depending on recently she purchased it, she may still be going through this time. Also unless she has asked for help, keep in mind that it is poor etiquette to point out another's weakness, regardless of how much you may want to. I've played in several groups where something someone else was doing was irksome, but unless they specically request help, it's not your responsibility to give it, nor is it likely to go over too well.

Wow! I actually beat Chris in answering a post. Yoohoo!!!

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Just joking aroud, of course. :)

Of course! I must be losing my touch!

Me too! You must be able to type faster than me. Lol! I bet you can't talk faster though...

It's interesting you say that, because I never learned how to type properly. I had the software and everything, but refused to use it (I didn't think it was important), so for years I've been typing my own way, and I actually have got it just about as fast as someone typing normally would. But then I've never been one to do things the "normal" way, so I'm just a big living case of "to each his own." I'd be willing to bet that you can talk faster than me...I tend to use a bit of a relaxed drawl (even though I'm from CA)!

i have a yamaha opened hole c foot and have never had any pronblems with pitch, i think its probly the b foot thats making the pitch changes

No, that is only with a c foot do you get a pitch change.

>>I think that to get tuning with a Yamaha may need a slight change to parameters such as embouchure, coverage of embouchure hole, airstream angle, air pressure.... all those things that affect pitch. At least some of these things affect the pitch of some notes more than others.<<

Right. Doing a little work with a tuner might help, too. I know that I simply changed the angle of my headjoint and things changed.

I was a little annoyed--I started playing with a community orchestra last week. I haven't played with a group in 20 years. The director tuned us based on A. Then, he proceeded to harp at the flutes for being out of tune for most of the rehearsal. Of course, it was difficult to tell what to tune TO--the flutist next to me (who had already told me that she was currently learning sax, and hadn't practiced the flute in a while, so I had to assume that she might not be dead accurate on embouchure control), or the screeching violins. I felt very self-conscious because I didn't know whether it was me or not. I was really hoping that they'd have a tuner available so that I could tune myself and try out a few other notes in various octaves. Grrrr.

The foot on a flute will not affect how well in tune it plays naturally. That is determined by the scale (size and location of the toneholes), and adding one extra hole (for a B foot) does not alter the other toneholes further up the flute. The Boehm flute was originally designed with a C foot, and plays equally well in tune (assuming the same scale) regardless of whether a C or B foot is on it. In fact, many flute makers offer convertible B/C footjoints, and they do not change the pitch of the instrument when you go back and forth from one to the other. I never had any problems with pitch either with my Yamaha, but it is remarkably difficult to play in tune with itself and other instruments in comparison to my other flute (the gold Tom Green). I think Micron has hit on it...Just as with most other things in the flute world, the Yamaha scale works for some people and not for others. And Pickled, when tuning, generally you want to listen to a voice lower than your own, so listen for the celli, or the low brass (if your orchestra includes them), or some other voice. You always want to tune down. Let the violins and other flutists do that for themselves, and don't worry about their pitch.

>>And Pickled, when tuning, generally you want to listen to a voice lower than your own, so listen for the celli, or the low brass (if your orchestra includes them), or some other voice. You always want to tune down. Let the violins and other flutists do that for themselves, and don't worry about their pitch.
<<

Thanks. I will do that. It was driving me nuts because the director kept telling us to "listen to each other and adjust," and then, of course, people started adjusting all over the place (as opposed to simply hearing YOURSELF a little "off" and adjusting). Other than the stray "bad" note, the last group I played in (20 years ago ), was pretty much in tune. We had to warm-up and tune before taking our seats, and were all required to do a certain amount of sessions with the tuner in various ranges each quarter. So, you didn't have to worry so much about hearing truly funky things around you, and then wondering if it was you or them. If you thought you were off, you probably were, and you compensated accordingly.

Judy

Yep! I've played in groups like that...It can be exasperating to play next to people who go flat on one note, sharp on the next, and have no idea that moving the headjoint won't help them play better in tune. If the pitch center is too far off, and it's simply unfeasible to tune to others because you can't figure out their pitch tendencies, get as close as possible, and then don't worry about it. No one will be able to tell if you're perfectly in tune if the other 40+ musicians are all over the place anyway.

Ultimately in a "student band" it is the conductor/director's responsibility to decide priorities and when to address tuning/intonation issues. Unfortunately, too often they understand too little about the instruments to be able to do so. For instance, its a good idea to tune a section of flutes to a note which uses most of the length of the flute eg Eb (because there is less scope to "bend" the pitch of such notes). IMHO advice such as "listen to each other" is often less helpful than listen to the clarinets or trumpets etc. For most students, listening to "other flutes" just confirms there is a problem while focusing on other instruments helps develop a sense of intonation and scale for that key and harmony.

Thanks for all the info. I really appreciate it.

To answer some of your questions-
She wasn't that strong of a player to begin with (played a Laurel-YUCK, then a Bundy, then this flute). She has gradually improved, but she doesn't take advice very well even when she asks for it. I wish the conductor would advise her but he deals with the choir more than the orchestra.

Thanks again. I'm glad I found this site.