I have started checking my intonation with my new tuner. Some notes are too much off and I do not know how to correct. Anybody has experienced this problem?
My flute is a Yamaha YFL 674 with B foot.

For example, I can play a A2 in tune (as told by the tuner). But E3 is about +25 sharp and I cannot lower it, no matter how I change position airflow and everything I can imagine. In fact, most of the 3rd octave is sharp, particularly after C3#

Any hint?

Thanks,

try pushing down the low c# key with your little finger on the right hand while you also push down the Eb key, or try this high E with no little finger at all.

Is it just the E3? Or are other notes in the 3rd octave sharp as well?
If so, I asked this question on another forum, and was referred to these articles:

http://home.no.net/deanstal/Artikler/Flutewise/harmonics2.pdf

http://home.no.net/deanstal/Artikler/Flutewise/harmonics.htm

I did end up pulling out a bit, as described here, and it has helped.
-Judy

Thanks. I will try Patrick's and Micron's hints tomorrow. I will also consult the given links. I am most inclined to think I am using too much air to compensate for insufficient airspeed.

The problem is with all notes on the third octave, except C4, that still escapes my present skill to make it sing reliably.
It is more noticeable with E3, but I have still to check more longer and carefully. Right now I am still learning the higher notes on the third octave, so I have not enough experience.
Neither had I tried intonation with a tuner before, so there are lots of things to learn.

I use Patrick's trick and life my right hand pinky when there is a tuning issue on E3.

Jose Luis,
The first time I used a compact electronic tuner, I was in for a big surprise. (I bought one after I couldn't get in tune , with the really good oboe player who not only NEVER played out of tune but could circular-breathe!)

It seemed like the upper notes were always sharp, and I could only change them by pulling out (lowering pitch too much in the first octave) or rolling the flute too far to keep tone good.

Keep an eye out for helpful 'alternate fingerings' but more importantly, don't give up. You will be able to make a bigger 'lip adjustment' as time goes on, especially if you are, as Micron suggests, putting too much air through the flute in the high register.

Tuning is ALWAYS relative when you are playing with another instrument of any kind. Most can change, but a piano or xylophone will not change. So- learn 'absolute' tuning from working with your tuner, and also learn to tune to a note given by any other instrument (clarinet, bassoon, trombone- anything) that is not necessarily in tune.

Trevor Wye's Practice Book 4 covers Intonation and Vibrato. I have his Omnibus Edition of books 1-5, these are a really valuable reference for so many areas of playing. If I had to get rid of 85% of my music, I would keep this book.

Some good exercises include blowing octaves with your tuner, and playing arpeggios very slowly. Your ability to adjust a note's intonation WILL improve, especially with hard work and a little practice every day.

I heard that E3 is very difficult to have a good intonation. I have problems with E3, too. My E3 don't rise good. I can't perform it especially after C3 or A2. With my old flute (YFL 271) I didn't have that problems. But now I have Buffet Crampon flute with silver head and maybe it's main problem.

Jose Luis,
Does your flute have a split E mechanism?
I sometimes lower the pitch on my E3 by closing the G key-without covering the open hole. This only works if the E3 in question lasts longer than the average quarter note, though. If this helps the pitch problem significantly, you could look into a G-donut- which essentially does the same thing.
And if you have a split E, this won't help much.

Speaking of Yamaha, has anyone ever tried the Julius Baker model?

I have seen them and tried them, I was not impressed, but I am not impressed with Yamaha at the pro level, only at the student level

Thanks for your suggestions. The YFL674 does have a spilt E and open holes (that I keep plugged for the moment).

I will check the intonation problem with my teacher this afternoon.

However, I have lost my ADSL service again and according to previous experience with this ISP, it may take a couple of weeks or longer, to get it up again.

Therefore I have lots of problems to follow this and other threads and will have much lower activity for the coming days.

No ADSL but still posting..

I had my lesson on Tuesday and checked the intonation problem with teacher. It seems to be related to may way playing (embouchure, position, air speed and quantity, etc).

I was not able to lower the E3 to less of +10 on the tuner, but with other notes (like F3), that were also sharp I could improve them down to 0 or +5. Teacher said that this a pretty common problem with students and that we must learn to adjust pitch to agree with others instruments, the worst being those with fixed tuning such as piano and guitar.

My YFL 674 seem to be factory tuned very high, with A=443 with headjoint fully in. To play without much effort at A=441, I have to take out the headjoint about 6mm (1/4"). But changing the direction of the air flow and the pressure I can sharpen it to +50 on the tuner or even get a Bflat (at the limit of overblowing), so it is surely a problem due my present limited skill.

Jose,
To attempt to set your mind at ease, your flute is a fine quality flute. It is an upper intermediate/lower professional flute as suggested by another on these forums. It is however designed as you are finding to be played at a higher pitch. This is because there is a tendancy to have a general creep in pitch with orchestras and bands throughout decades and years so that these groups are generally playing at higher pitches. This pitch shift can be heard at some of the early music festivals/ performances where the groups may be playing at their old tuning pitches. They may be playing in old pitch as much as one whole step lower than A=440. Now because of this up-creep in pitch, some of the manufactures are giving in and making flutes at a=442 instead of the last millennium's a=440. Although many tuners today can be adjusted to read at a=442, most players keep them at a=440 because they feel that this is standard concert pitch.

No flute is designed to be played reasonably in tune at A=440 at 72F with the head joint in all the way. To compensate for the higher tuning of your Yamaha brand, you need to pull out a bit as you have found. 1/4" may be a starting place. I actually pull out more than that but I also tend to roll the flute forward more so that less than 1/4th of the embouchure hole is covered by my bottom lip. These things make me tend to have more dynamic range and tend to make me develop my embouchure more for a focused sound across a larger hole. I also find that when pulled out relatively far, my high notes don't tend to go as sharp and that the pitches are less prone to easily wandering (being gamey). On the down side, you need to watch that the low notes don't go flat. This is what I do because it works for me. I don't necessarily recommend it to anyone else.

The truth about flutes is that they aren't tuned/designed perfectly on every note. As an example, if a designer wanted this high E to be in tune, they may want to move the A key down the tube a few millimeters. It may do the trick for your E3 BUT it may make the A1 and A2 become flat. -not good. That E3 is played less than the two As and the E is more "flexible" for the player. So, compromises are made in the design to adjust for tuning and tone. As an example, these days, makers/designers may even market their "scales". Take for example, the Haynes Flute "Deveau Scale", across the pond -the Cooper Scale, one can name a few others. Consequently, no flute is tuned perfectly at the factory. As a matter of fact, no musical instrument is and they never will be "in tune" unless they are played so.

The trick with any flute is to tune your flute so that you are generally comfortable playing relatively well in tune on the majority of notes. You need to learn the general tendancies of each note and then set up the head so that you can play all notes in tune. I would go up and down scales and arpeggios with the tuner and write down the odd pitches. Your high E3 may be sharp, high C# may be sharp, high Bb3 and E2 may be flat and so forth. As a matter of fact, write the tendancy down for each and every note. Do this several times and over time you will see a pattern. Then place your head joint so that you can play them all relatively well in tune.

Now we also need to develop our ears on a regular basis. I recommend as a starting point to tune octaves. To outline part of an exercise,
1) Play F1 and tune it with your tuner.

2)Look away.

3)Play F1 again.

4)Look back to see if you are in tune.

5)Learn to hear the note in your mind in tune before you play it.

6) While not looking at your tuner, play F2 while hearing F1 in your mind. Learn to play F2 in tune with your concept of F1 and then look at your tuner to check your tuning.

7) Do this going up the chromatic scale, major scale, your favorite arpeggio, etc...

8)Once you get your octaves in tune, then try perfect fifths. F-C, G-D, A-E....Thirds, etc...

Then play duets with your teacher. Slow ones and focus on your tuning.
Ask abou playing the Telemann, 6 Duets Op. #2. SOme of them are great for tuning. and good tunes as well.

Once you become in touch with your hearing and once you don't expect that just the fingering of any flute will always play "in tune", you can advance more. Or to answer anyone's question simply who has a good working flute, Why is my flute out of tune? Because you are playing it out of tune.

That being said, with any flute one can't rule out the possibility that there may be a problem. These things can develop at any time. If you have a leaky pad or if you are not covering a hole all the way with your finger, it may make a note a tad sharp. Having the flute out of alignment with your fingers. (Rolling it excessively forward or back) may uncover the holes just a bit. Even using the plugs for the key holes that come with open hole flutes may cause a tuning issue. Probably not very much though. Another point of investigation, a leaking or loose cork plug or a leaking tenon joint.


Sincerely hope that something that I wrote sets your mind at ease and that it helps with your progress.

One last hint:
Moving the location of the head joint DOES NOT uniformely adjust all the notes on the flute to be more sharp or flat in an equal manner.

The only way this could happen is if the flute were hypothetically made of some elastic material and one stretched (or compressed)the flute from the ends to adjust all of the pitches.

So, having the head joint located in an extreme place such as pulled out too far or pushed in all the way will cause certain detrimental effects to the tuning of certain notes.

Jose,

The first thing you need to do is setup your flute for adjustment for the way you are currently playing. (Partially based on your air speed, angle, and how much of the hole you cover with your bottom lip) The routine for establishing the correct octave length (headjoint draw) includes those factors however. (this involves comparing certain overtones with regular fingered notes)

Deviating from that ideal amount will make tuning adjustments greater, as you deviate more from your ideal octave length compensation (BTW draw means the amount you pull the headjoint out). That includes pushing in or pulling out.

High E will be sharp, it has two vents (as does F#) making it sharper and less stable.)

The trick is to learn to play in tune with yourself first, then other people second. You need to train your ear first. The tuner's only useful purpose is probably only towards that end of ear training. But if your flute is not setup (head pulled out for correct octave length and subsequent stopper adjustment) you will be working harder than you need to be..

Joe B

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Added to say...

Your flute will be most easily able to be played in tune at one pitch. That's not to say that you can't play it at other pitch standards but that will require more effort. So it is best to get the setup right and START at the pitch your flute was designed for...