I wonder if I could hear an actual difference or not when someone other then myself plays on them though. I can hear the difference and response when I play them though. THat would be intereseting.

Hi and welcome!

I have no intention of providing competitive advise here, with so many experienced people and professional players giving you very valuable advise.

But you mentioned you consider yourself a mature person who is just starting to learn a new instrument.

I think that is a nice age and I wish I was even close to it, but I almost double you in age and have started learning the flute only four years ago.

So, I can only give some hints based on my own experience and hope they could be useful:

1) I would suggest you buy an intermediate flute directly. You will need rather sooner than later, so why not buy it from the very beginning?
I started with a student Gemeinhardt M3 (just because I had kept it with me for 25 years, awaiting the day I would make up my mind and start the learning).

It was OK for the first year or maybe two, but then it started having problems and I had to buy a new instrument. It was hindering my advancement, as I found as soon as I started practising on my new Yamaha 674.

Intermediate flutes like the YFL 6xx have more features than just some more silver on it. In particular, the hole cut can be considerably better (and, I must say, could also be more difficult to manage), but it is worth the effort. You get better tone, in almost all aspects of it.

There are other features in intermediate instruments that are not common in student flutes, such as better springs (white gold, for example) and mechanical improvements.

2) If you do not need open holes, do not buy them. I did, because I wanted to correct a bad position for my RH annular, but so far, I have not been able to play satisfactorily with all holes open. And that ONE, was the most difficult. So I plugged them all, with just one exception.

3) B foot is a problem, more than an advantage, unless you really need it:

It makes the instrument more expensive (although it also increases its reselling price). But it adds weight, lenght (also for its carrying case and bag) and IMHO, which is based on discussions in some previous threads here, it can reduce the venting for some notes, making them more difficult to make them sound correctly. Having two rollers for B and C adds difficulty for playing those notes fast.

4) I quite agree with your decision of an offset G. In-line G adds an additional difficulty for correct hand positions, and there is no evident advantage, as far as I know.

You should be prepared to pay ario¡ound 2,000$ for a new intermediate Yamaha flute, but of course there are many other very good brands, everyone here has its own preference and there have been endless discussions on which brand is better.

I cannot give any advise about them, except for my own personal and therefore limited experience with Yamaha.

5) If I had the resources, I would go for a Muramatsu or Sankyo. Why? because you will not be changing instruments many times, or maybe will you? And, again IMHO, they do make a difference!

Again, thank you all for some great advice; and Jose-Luis, thank you in particular for your thoughts. It's really encouraging hearing from someone else who started their flute studies as an adult. I am quite inspired!

I have a Yamaha 221 and it's AMAZING. I don't think B footed flutes are good. it's only one extra note and it's heavier.

The amount of weight added by a B foot is miniscule compared to some of the options you can have added. For instance, a flute with a gold or platinum headjoint (or even a gold/platinum body) will weigh significantly more than a solid silver flute, but a solid silver B footed flute will weigh only slightly more than a solid silver C footed flute. Most people will never need the Low B, but for most of us, that small difference in weight is not going to cause any problems.

it's only one extra note and it's heavier.

True it is only one extra note but I play that note quite often in advanced repertoire and miss it sometimes when I do play on my C foot. I like both and both have their advantages. It is worth it to have it for what I am playing. I guess it all depends on what music you choose to play also.

Jose Luis has a valid point ragarding his Yamaha 600 series flute. This flute has Yamaha's standard 'pro' headjoint and is probably more of a 'budget pro' flute than an intermediate one. A Yamaha 200 with the EC headjoint (as comes with the 600 series) will play very, very much like a Yamaha 600 series flute. The springs may make for a slower mechanism, but this will be a very small difference until you have had a few years on the flute.
Also, the Gemeinhardt student model flute would not be expected to take you as far as the Yamaha student model.
A Gemeinhardt student flute is definitely a better choice than a cheapo eBay special, but usually students who have a Yamaha student flute do not need to upgrade their instrument nearly as soon as those playing a Gemeinhardt.
If you are really into jazz flute, open holes would be something you will want, but for almost all flute players, they just get plugged. And open holes are more time consuming and exacting to pad properly, and will reflect that in an overhaul or even clean, oil and adjust price.

I have to disagree with several of your points, Tibbie. First of all, the different material used for springs should not result in a slower mechanism. Spring tension and strength can be adjusted by a good tech so that there should be no appreciable difference between white gold, blue steel, or any other spring material. Jon Landell keeps several different materials of spring wire on hand in various gauges, and uses them interchangeably (for the most part). Whether you buy a Gemeinhardt or a Yamaha will not determine how long it will take for you to need an upgrade (if you ever do). How well the flute you get ends up matching you and your needs will....If you're a "Gemeinhardt player" (meaning you and your playing is more naturally suited to Gemmies than Yamahas) and you purchase a Gemeinhardt, then you should not need to upgrade any sooner than a Yamaha player who uses a Yamaha. However, if you are a "Yamaha player" trying to work with a Gemeinhardt (or vice versa), the case may be different. There are too many intracacies (such as how long and hard you practice, your musical goals, maintainance and condition of the instrument, etc.) to be able to say that one flute will need replacement sooner than another. Newer Gemeinhardts have had some complaints about quality, but both companies have instruments of good quality available. I know a couple of people who made it through college playing on Gemeinhardts, as well as some who did the same with Yamahas, Pearls, or other brands. Lastly, you said that "open holes are more time consuming and exacting to pad properly, and will reflect that in an overhaul or even clean, oil and adjust price," which simply isn't the case. Any good pad job will be extremely precise and thus will require a good deal of time, but the requirements for padding an openhole flute are not any more stringent than those for a plateau model, and the techniques are the same. Some techs do charge more for more expensive flutes, which may be where that idea came from, as most upper line instruments have French keywork, but there's no reason to expect a higher repair cost for playing an open hole instrument.

Wow, we haven't had a heated up debate for quite a while... I felt something was missing in this place!

I just wanted to add, coming back to klaes' comment, that I am sure we are not alone in this Forum concerning the issue of a "late" beginning with the instrument.

Surely, a few more opinions from other forum goers in a similar situation would be useful for us.

No doubt that it is preferable to start learning the flute (and anything)when we are young or even kids. The things I did learn when I was a child have remained in my head since then (though some have fainted a little and others have much improved); my modest proficiency in English is one of them. Several decades later I tried again with German, but I could not get the same results.

As for the flute, I think my progress has been comparable to those of younger people and I am quite happy with it.

As you are a music professor most probably your decision to start this new learning is very serious and you have the best knowledge base one could desire, short of having played the instrument at school.

I based on this assumption my suggestion about going directly to an intermediate flute (or one of a higher level, if you can afford it).

I find that to keep removing and replacing the pad retainers for open hole flutes (during adjustment), without damaging or distorting pads, pads, is considerably more time consuming than for standard pads. It far easier to damage one of these open-hole pads during removal, than for a standard pad.

I have never had any trouble with damaging pads using the tools, techniques and materials that I do. I don’t doubt that it’s possible, but it’s not terribly difficult to damage a pad on a Plateau flute either...A slip of the screwdriver could ruin a pad. With the proper tools, a bushing can be removed in about 5 seconds (without unnecessary risk to the pad). I find a screw to be about the same time-wise, though your experience may vary. In any case, bushings are much quicker to put back in place than screws and washers (at least in my opinion), which would seem to negate any advantage the screw/washer system might have when it comes to removing them.

There is also time involved ensuring that there are no air leaks past those retainers.

It's true that leaks past the bushings are a concern, but that problem can (most often) be fixed rather simply with a bit of beeswax, a torch and a piece of metal of the proper size, and usually takes only about 30 seconds (if that) per French key cup. I would hardly call 2 1/2 (the time for 5 bushings to be taken care of in this manner) minutes a significant increase in worktime considering that a good pad job takes hours rather than minutes.

There is also the time involved fitting replacement retainers when the originals split, or are otherwise unsatisfactory. Screws and washers seldom fail.

TIt seems to me that you've taken to grasping at straws now. Yes, the bushings can split, but this is relatively unusual, and can hardly be counted as a normal part of a repad. As for screws and washers failing, it's not unheard of for spuds to come unsoldered, screws to get stripped and need rethreading or replacement, or tiny parts to get dropped and lost. Problems with the pad retaining system are not unique to French style keys.

For the not-so-common open hole flutes around here, it is not worth stocking the pads with large holes, so there is also the added time for perforating the pads.

With the proper tools (pad dies and a punch), a perforation can be made in a pad in about 5 seconds. Total time for 5 pads (enough for a full repad of those keys requiring larger holes in the pads): 25 seconds. Hardly a significant addition to worktime. In any case, as a tech, you made the decision not to stock the pads that would save you having to perforate others, so charging a customer for something that was your choice (and is easy to get around) hardly makes sense.

All these little extras add up, resulting in more time and a higher charge.

I won't deny that the things you mentioned add up, but only to an extra 5-10 (and that's being pretty generous in my mind) minutes of time spent working on a flute for all the points you listed here. As every repad is slightly different, if we're looking at time as a measure of price, a Plateau flute that was troublesome during shimming could easily take just as long or longer than a French flute, which would seem to negate the idea that everyone should automatically expect to pay more to have a French flute repadded than a Plateau model. This was the real point of my response to Tibbie.

The very act of removing a pad retainer for an open hole pad, can be close to impossible without putting unnatural compression on parts of the felt, which in itself, jhas the potential to alter the adjustment.

Using the tools, techniques, and materials that I do, I have never had trouble with pads changing how they sit due to the removal of bushings. Very little force is put on the pad during the removal of the retainers (and then, it most likely is only at the very edge of the pad, where the bushing would be putting pressure anyway, rather than the outer edges where the tonehole might need to seal). In a plateau model, the screws and washers put pressure on the pads as well, so you would have to expect some compression, and perhaps a slight change to the adjustments there as well. Many of the concerns of a tech while repadding a flute hold true for both French and Plateau style keywork.

Overall, I see little evidence supporting either of the things Tibbie mentioned and you defended (a French keyed flute being more “time consuming and exacting to pad”). The amount of time required may increase very minimally, but compared with a plateau-style flute, it may be faster. Each repad has to be addressed as individual, as every flute has its own challenges to work with, which would make it impossible to accurately compare how long it takes to pad a French keyed flute vs. a Plateau flute (until every variable between two flutes except whether holes exist in the keys can be eliminated). In any case, looking at the big scheme of things, a few minutes added on to a procedure that takes several hours anyway is not likely to produce an extra charge from the tech. And certainly the contention that a French system flute is more “exacting” to pad is not accurate. As I mentioned, ANY good pad work will be extremely precise. Plateau models do not have less stringent requirements for how well the pads have to seal just because they are Plateau models. The challenges may be slightly different, but the work is no less demanding.

If you disagree with my points, I would be more than happy to discuss them (and anything other related points) with you, but since they have very little bearing on the original topic, perhaps we should move to private messages for any remaining discussion that is to take place.

On a completely unrelated note, I'd like to thank you for your kind words. I'm always gratified to hear that others (particularly those whom I respect...And I do respect your knowledge) agree with me. So, anyway, thank you for that, and I look forward to seeing your response to the ideas I wrote out above.

Cheers!

Chris, I thought about what you said about the C foot and B foot thing being a rumor so I played on my C foot today and came to the conclusion that I may just be confussing brighness with response. The C foot seems to respond better to me and be a tad lighter in weight. I am not one to get sucked into myths or marketing hype of any kind so it really make my wonder a bit. What tricks our brains can play on us!

You mention special tools.

Actually, I believe I said "proper tools," and I'm sure you have them. I simply meant that if you were trying to pry the bushings up with a screwdriver or the like, that you could easily end up taking more time, simply because you would need to be much more careful not to damage the pads. With a tool designed to remove bushings, I find it to be quite a simple and quick process with no risk to the pads.

The tool I use is a Ferrees E36, which I have modified so that crushed "footprint" on the pad, done by the tool, is a lot smaller in diameter. If you know of a tool significantly superior to what I describe , I really would like to know about it.

Unfortunately I am not at home right now, and do not know off the top of my head what the E36 is (actually, the reason it took me so long to write back is that I was trying to find out). When I get back home, I will look it up and reply more fully to this.

"... With the proper tools, a bushing can be removed in about 5 seconds (without unnecessary risk to the pad)" I have had some take a lot longer than that, which is another reason for asking you about tools that I don't know about. Perhaps you have simply been "blessed" with relatively easily removed bushings.[/quote\] Perhaps I have been blessed. I've also encountered a few tough ones (in fact, one of the first flutes I worked on had cracks in the key cups where the bushings should sit, making it wuite difficult to place and remove them, as well as get a good seal past the retainers), but in my experience these are in the minority, especially to the extent that I just mentioned. I rather expect you know about them, but normally I use either a pad slick to remove the bushings or a specially modified pair of pliers that fit around the bushing and get under the rim of the retianer. I've been known to use less orthodox tools, but these are what I usually find best for the job. Assuming there are no problems with the bushings or key cups themselves (which is usually the case), even the toughest to work with haven't been difficult to work with. "For me, a screw never takes as long.In any case, bushings are much quicker to put back in place than screws and washers..." About the same time for me. Well, I suppose that can be chalked up to the fact that we're different folks (same goes for the removal stage). Yes, the bushings can split, but this is relatively unusual, and can hardly be counted as a normal part of a repad..." Surprisingly common here. Perhaps it depends on the hiding that other technicians in your vicinity have given them. That could very well be. This is not meant to offend, so please forgive me if it does, but since you live in an area of the world where French keys are less common (assumption made based upon your mention about pads with larger holes having less turnover...please correct me if I'm wrong), perhaps the techs in that part of the world have less experience with open hole flutes, and before they reach you, the bushings have already taken more of a beating than they were really built for. I have had to modify the retainers on only one of my project flutes (actually, the same one with the cracks in the key cups, and not because the retainers split), but discussion with flute techs and Jon Landell seems to support the idea that bushings splitting is not a normal part of a repad. "... it's not unheard of for spuds to come unsoldered..." Very Rare here, now that almost all of the Hernals flutes are no longer in circulation. Perhaps this depends on the models that are common in each of our environments. It's not usual around here either, but the point was not so much that I was attacking Plateau flutes, but that I was showing that they have weaknesses just like French flutes. You only mentioned the things that can go wrong with bushings, but there are comparable accidents with plateau flutes as well. "...screws to get stripped and ...need replacement" I don't think I've encountered this since most of the Grassi flutes were pensioned off, and the rotting spud nuts of the Hernals were no longer in circulation. The same applies as above. ".. or tiny parts to get dropped and lost..." True. But getting replacements for a lost retainer is a much bigger hassle here than a screw, because they are so individual, and there are so many brands here that it is not viable to stock retainers for all open hole flutes when there are such relatively few of them here. But there are also dozens of screws you must pick through to be sure you have one of the right length, properly threaded for the particular instrument you're working on, the right diameter for the hole, etc. Especially with older flutes, there are some funky screws out there, and if one were to be lost, it could be quite a hassle to replace as well. "...you made the decision not to stock the pads that would save you having to perforate others, so charging a customer for something that was your choice (and is easy to get around) hardly makes sense." If I stocked the perforated pads, the turn-over is so very low, that I would have to realistically charge more for these pads, for carrying relatively dead stock. The option I chose was the preferable one for the customer's wallet. :-) I can't claim to see the logic here, but I'm not a master of economics either. Perhaps you could explain a bit more fully why keeping certain pads around should cost additional money when in the longterm they may save time (and thus increase profits by allowing you to get on to another flute)? Different horses for different courses. I think in the long run, that this simple statement is what it comes down to. We're different people, with different ideas, working on different flutes, (more than likely) using different tools, in different environments. <Added> Apparently my quoting didn't work out quite right. Sorry about that. I'm sure you'll be able to figure out what's going on, though! :)