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Our daughter is starting instrumental music and my husband is DEAD set against renting. I have been looking on flute world and considering a Jupiter 515S, a Pearl PF-505E, or a Gemeinhardt 2sp.

The Gemeinhardt is certainly the cheap option, but I have heard that they have stopped making these flutes in the US.

Recomendations?

Where the flute is made makes little difference. Some of the finest flutes in the world come from Boston and other parts of the US, but flutes at the same level come from Japan, the Netherlands, etc. As long as the instrument is built to acceptable quality, its nation of origin isn't terribly important. The Gemeinhardt 2sp is a decent student level flute, and would be fine for your daughter, as would the other brands you mentioned. Personally I'm not a fan of Gemeinhardts, but plenty of people start on them (and some continue through college or beyond playing them) and they serve their purpose. At the beginner level it's most important that one have a flute that performs as it should reliably, so whichever of those instruments you favor will be fine. If your daughter decides to stick with playing, then once she's developed her playing you can upgrade her to a higher quality instrument.

A nice low-cost option if she's serious as it will keep her from needing a major upgrade in high school.

If you're still referring to Gemeinhardts, I think it's important to include a caveat. One of the things Gemmies aren't great for is the scale (particularly on older models) and the mechanism (which is usually quite boxy). If your daughter becomes serious about the flute, she'll need a model with a smoother, more even mechanism and a better scale than most Gemmies. I've mentioned several times before that I consider it bad policy to buy for the future, and the same goes here. There's nothing wrong with a beginner starting on a Gemeinhardt, but don't lock yourself into the idea of only purchasing a headjoint later. Aside from the fact that I personally don't think it makes too much sense to put a handmade head on a student line body (If you're advanced enough to truly appreciate a handmade head, you most likely would benefit from a new body too), your daughter's taste in flutes down the road may or may not make this a possibility. Now, I would not recommend shelling out for a silver flute at this point. A plated instrument (provided that it's from a reputable company and in good repair) will be more than enough to suit your daughter's needs as a beginner. If it turns out that she doesn't continue playing, then you will have saved yourself some money, and if she does continue, you can apply the money you saved to a nicer instrument when she is ready to upgrade. Unlike cars, flutes only really depreciate once, and then tend to plateau in their value. They lose value as soon as they are played (because at this point they are "used"), so the original purchaser of a new flute loses out financially if they decide to sell later, but once it's used, it will maintain about the same price tag. If you buy used at a good price, and keep the flute in good condition, regardless of level, you will likely get about the same as you paid for it should you choose to sell it. Of course there are exceptions to this rule, but depreciation generally is minimal (so long as the company maintains its good reputation) after the flute leaves the store.

Right - but you noticed that I recommended a USED (mint condition) Gemeinhardt. It's already depreciated and as such the silver body is a nice bonus. It's really not a bad flute and should last through high school.

Of course, ANY person going into college will want to get a professional flute, so by thinking ahead, I'm only talking about high school A lot of parents buy a budget flute new and then the child gets hindered in their junior and senior years of high school - just outgrow it. Cue new flute pruchase($$$$). Then the person wants a REAL flute again in a few years in college. So buying up a step to begin with is often a better choice. Doubly so if you can find a perfect condition used one for a low price.(holds true for any brand, but Gems are silly low priced used as a rule)

Of course, ANY person going into college will want to get a professional flute, so by thinking ahead

This is another broad generalization of the type that I continually disagree with. EVERYONE is different, and everyone has different circumstances and needs. Many people going into college will want/need an upgrade. Some will have upgraded significantly earlier or will decide whatever they're playing already suits them fine and save the money.

by thinking ahead, I'm only talking about high school

Which could be anywhere from 4 to 10 years down the road (depending on the age of the OP's daughter), and in that time any player could easily develop past whatever equipment they started on. As I've noted above, it's simply bad policy to buy for the future, regardless of how you rationalize it. There is no way to know what will happen in the future, or what a player's needs/wants will be a year (or two or three) down the road. Buy an instrument that is appropriate to your current needs, and if you need to upgrade, so be it, but don't try to avoid upgrades by attempting to predict what equipment a player will need later in life.

So buying up a step to begin with is often a better choice. Doubly so if you can find a perfect condition used one for a low price.

On paper that seems logical, but it's simply not the case. As you go higher in the range of flutes, they become more difficult to play well, though they start to offer new musical options. This is because it is expected that by the time you reach the intermediate/advanced level, you will not need a headjoint with such a forgiving cut, and that you can handle more resistance, etc. Student flutes are built so that tone production is relatively easy and consistent, as it does not matter nearly as much how you use your air or where you direct it. Artist level flutes will (as a general rule) display a relatively large change in tone/pitch just from a small change to the air stream. Giving a beginner an intermediate level instrument just opens the possibility of additional frustration. Beginners should start out on student flutes, and upgrade according to their need. Of all the various types of flutes, an intermediate model is the least necessary, IMO. If the student is serious, buy them a basic pro model when and if they're ready for it, and if they're not serious, the student model will serve them just fine until they decide to stop playing. And as I've said before, it's only a bonus to find a cheap flute if it suits the player. No matter how good a bargain it is, if it's a poor match to the player, it's not a very good deal.

Once again, you seem most concerned with cost and how many "extras" you can get without paying more rather than what is actually best for the player. Low price is a good thing, but it CANNOT be the primary concern if the student's musicianship is to be given the chance to reach its fullest potential.

Most of what you said would be true if it weren't for one thing.

We're talking about 1 small step up from a student model. All of these intermediate student models are dead simple to play as well. Often they have the exact same headjoint as well. And they have better options and tuning most likely.

An example of this would be to start with a used Yamaha 300 or 400 versus a new 200. I'm not suggesting you start on a $3000 Pearl. Why not get that ~10% better sound from a silver headjoint and body for the same money? Especially if buying used means you avoid most of the depreciation?

Also, every time you change equipment, you spend a lot of money doing so. As such, if you can move up a bit better to start, and maybe get by with one less swap/purchase down the line, why not do so?

Why not get that ~10% better sound from a silver headjoint and body for the same money?

One reason would be that you won't get anywhere near that big an impact from the added silver. Another would be that even if you could achieve such a difference (at any level) by adding some silver, a beginner will not be able to appreciate the difference. If you're hearing a difference it is because they are two different flutes which are slightly different from one another (regardless of whether they are the same make/model), and more than likely your own psychology. You believe the silver should help, so you play it like it does. The effect that material has on a flute is extremely subtle, noticeable only to advanced flutists, and apparent mostly to the player. Take this from someone who has tested a vast number of instruments from every major maker, as well as most of the independent makers, and vintage/collectible flutes. I've played flutes of every imagineable material at every imagineable level. To prove this idea to yourself, try playing a silver plated Lot or Bonneville against a silver Cibaili sometime and see which plays better. My money will be on the plated flute.

It sounds to me like you need to reevaluate quite a bit of your information and start applying some logic/common sense to your opinions.

And they have better options and tuning most likely.

And if we weren't talking about a beginner here, that might matter. No beginner is going to need special options to be able to learn, and buying them at this level makes little sense. As for tuning, older models of flute certainly can have very poorly designed scales, but modern instruments are generally acceptably well in tune with themselves. High level instruments may have additional fine tuning built into the scale, but with such a small difference from the base model, you're getting the same scale the student instrument is built on, so better tuning is out as a possible reason to buy an "intermediate student" flute, as you termed it.

Also, every time you change equipment, you spend a lot of money doing so.

Another broad (and inaccurate) generalization. For instance, just this summer I switched back-up flutes and made $300 in the end.

As such, if you can move up a bit better to start, and maybe get by with one less swap/purchase down the line, why not do so?

Because, as I've said again and again, that's buying for the future, and frankly it's a ridiculous policy to follow as an artist, and no beginner will benefit from a more expensive flute. The silver in the headjoint of a 300 series Yammie will not make it last any longer than a 200 series Yammie, so essentially you're paying more for a flute that will need to be replaced just as soon. At the intermediate level, most players still have no use for open holes or a B foot, so even if you bought a 300 model with those features, its usefulness will run its course in the same time as a 200, and it will still need to be replaced.

We're talking about 1 small step up from a student model.

And the money it costs for such a small (and in this case, essentially worthless upgrade) is far beyond what you're gaining buying a higher level flute. If you stick to a used flute (as I've always suggested), it WILL cost more to buy a used "higher level" instrument used than to buy the base model used, and there is little to be concerned about in terms of depreciation (though this once again is you focusing on economics). Once the flute is used, it won't lose much (if any) value. Depreciation is only something you need to be concerned with if you buy a new instrument. Your ideas only makes sense when comparing a new base model with a used upper level instrument.

As a flutist of some 40 years, and a former student of Joan Bennett, (Assistant principal flutist, Chicago Symphony), I can tell you that ANY student --- regardless of their (or YOUR expectations) should buy the best flute possible.

|It can become very frustrating to attempt to play on a "student" model flute --- regardless of make.

It should be a French model flute, with a low B foot joint, with an in-line G.

Gizmo key or diamond springs not necessary.

Optional would be a gold embechure lip plate, for tonal quality.

Such a flute is (or was) manufactured and HAND-MADE by Emerson, for about $1100. An excellent buy and one that would last (any prospective student) throughout their high-school and college years. It is then that he or she can consider upgrading to a Muramatsu (avoid the "wing-tip"), Powell, Brannen-Cooper or other "high-end" flutes.

Initially, there are three considerations: SOLID SILVER, low B foot joint, French Model/in-line G.

Keep those considerations in mind when purchasing a flute.

Keep away from silver-plated nickel bodied flutes, with Plateau keys. They don't provide the same tone, nor response, and can frustrate even (and, especially) the beginner.

Regards, Jim
Chamber Music Society of Chicago

It should be a French model flute, with a low B foot joint, with an in-line G.

I have to completely disagree with you on this. Why a B foot? How often do beginners actually PLAY a low B? It adds more weight to the flute and is harder to balance for a beginner. Also, why a "French" model? This subject has been brought up many time on this group. Open holes do not give a flute any better of a sound than a closed hole. I would never start a beginner off on an open hole flute, it only makes it that much harder for the student. You also wrote in-line. Why? The in line G is more uncomfortable for most people (not all) and the offset is more ergonomically correct.

Sorry.. no edit button.

Initially, there are three considerations: SOLID SILVER, low B foot joint, French Model/in-line G.

I have played on some silver PLATED bodied flutes that have actually outplayed some solid silver flutes. It is the DESIGN that is the factor NOT the metal.

Gizmo key or diamond springs not necessary.

What are "diamond springs"? Do you mean gold springs?

I am suprised with your 40 years of playing that you would suggest some of these things.

I am also very surprised and skeptical about some of your suggestions. There has been repeated discussion and provision of evidence that refutes most of your points. How, exactly, have you come to these conclusions?

Kara has taken care of most of the disagreeing for me (and second all of her points), but there are a couple more points that quite frankly are ludicrous, particularly coming from a flutist of your experience.

Optional would be a gold embechure lip plate, for tonal quality.

As has been mentioned, whether or not material matters at all is up for debate, but assuming it does, it makes such a subtle difference that it's apparent mostly to the player. Tonal quality is determined primarily by the player, secondarily by the geometry of the headjoint (particularly the dimensions of the embouchure hole), and somewhere WAY down the hierarchy is material. If you prefer a gold lip plate, there's no harm in having one, but relying on them for tone quality, or limiting your choices to only those heads with a gold lip plate doesn't make much sense. No beginner is going to be able to appreciate the difference (if any) between a gold lip plate, and one of silver, or silver plate, or platinum or any other material you can name, and there's no reason to go to the extra expense of buying a gold lip plate at this level (much less a silver flute).

As for the Inline G, most beginners are young, and thus have small hands which are ill-suited to the extra stretch of an Inline G. Once grown, if an Inline G is more comfortable, then that is what they should have, but an Offset is much more ergonomic for far more people, and is what most beginners should look for in an instrument.

Keep away from silver-plated nickel bodied flutes, with Plateau keys. They don't provide the same tone, nor response, and can frustrate even (and, especially) the beginner.

Frankly, this is ridiculous. The reason the tone is different is that most (there are some very notable exceptions, such as Louis Lots and other vintage French flutes) are student level instruments, and don't have the same care and craftsmanship taken as professional level instruments. They are more than adequate for a beginner (and are arguably far better suited to someone starting out than an upper level flute). Response on some plated flutes is fantastic. The vast majority of flutists these days start out on plated instruments, and you don't see a shortage of players who progress to the advanced levels of playing. As long as the flute is from a reputable company and in good repair, frustration is likely to be due not to the material of the instrument, but perhaps to the teacher, the requirement that a student practice, a particularly difficult technique, etc.

Such a flute is (or was) manufactured and HAND-MADE by Emerson, for about $1100. An excellent buy and one that would last (any prospective student) throughout their high-school and college years.

I would be very surprised and disappointed to find a serious player who hadn't outgrown the flute they started on before they graduated college. Of course, not everyone can afford to upgrade, but assuming you're a serious flutist, your musical needs are very likely to change in the years of experience they will have gathered before college ends. It hardly makes sense to expect a student to remain on the same instrument for 8+ years, particularly at the beginning, when their abilities are constantly developing and changing.

(avoid the "wing-tip")

Perhaps you mean a wing lip? As far as I'm aware, wingtips refer to shoes, dress shirts, and parts of an airplane. In any case, if a winglip works well for a given player, why should they pass up that headjoint in favor of a traditional headjoint that may not perform as well? Not everyone likes winglips (personally, I fall in that category), but just because something doesn't work for us doesn't mean it won't work for others. I struggle to see the logic here.


Many of your points defy not only the experience and flute lore more than a century of flutists using Boehm's creation have built up, but logic itself. I would suggest you reevaluate some of your ideas, particularly if you're actively teaching.

As a flutist of 40 years, I would think that you would know how to spell embouchure. Me thinks there is some fibbing going on here...

not evrybody here play on a "high end flute". Profesional or student would probably chouse somthing thats comfterble to them. Its all about opinions.

Well didn't you know, those yuppy flutists that through around money on gold flutes and such think other wise. They just don't get it that a good portion of us can't afford to blow all that money like that or even have it. Nothing wrong with a student starting off on a STUDENT flute.