I have been reading and not responding for some time...a little too much drama for me. But, now...since I cannot fall back to sleep...I am going to post something. I keep reading on so many posts that metal is not important...silver plated plays the same as silver...Yamaha series 200-400 play the same...etc. So...

-How come when I have played several Yamaha 200 models, 300, and 400...I still, hands down, prefer the 300/400's. I agree, there isn't much difference in the 300/400...headjoints are the most deciding factor in sound quality (and those are both models with the same cut and same metal...so the same head). I play these regularly at the music store I teach in...I try out flutes for my students. I mean...when we get down to the physics...doesn't each metal vibrate slightly different b/c of different weights?

-Also, I just bought a new headjoint a couple of months ago. I was sent two all silver, and one with a gold riser. Everyone I played for, and there were many, liked the sound of the gold riser much better. It also seemed to respond easier. I had better control over dynamics and speedier response. I played on all 3 of them for a couple of weeks...several hours each day...and always came to the same conclusion.

So, help me out here...why do I continue to hear these differences...and feel them...if there is no truth to it. I just googled density of metals...
Sterling Silver: 10.2-10.3
14 kt gold: 12.9-14.6
Platinum: 21.4 (even though I had always heard 21.5...good old Varese )

I just have been really curious about this...having read so many posts about it, an no one really explains why there is no difference. Also, many flute teachers and masterclasses I have been to recommend that the best place to spend a little extra money is the riser...that the metal (gold or platinum) can make a huge difference.

Thanks for any help in resolving this matter...and why I may have spent a few hundred extra on my happy gold riser. I am just trying to find more answers on this, so I can advise my students better.
Sara

Everyone I played for, and there were many, liked the sound of the gold riser much better. It also seemed to respond easier.

Could be due to the cut of the embouchure. More so with hand made headjoints, but there are likely variations in production cuts too.

So many questions..no time to answer.

You have to separate what you feel from what is actually heard in the room. They are two different things.

The metal is a container for the air column, vibration of the metal itself at a certain threshold is not good for the performance of the flute.

Densities (and subsequent thickness)of metal control that amount of tube vibration effect. Gold tubes are thinner than silver but differ in density, Keeping in mind the threshold of tube vibration (also influenced by the player) this will affect things differently for different players.

The metal grain structure added to that player induced function also creates a different environment. And as always, the closer you get to the embouchure hole the more affect it will have on the total air column. There will always be an affected standing wave node in the headjoint. That is not true of the body tube. Hence Riser has an effect first, headjoint second and body least as far as tonal aspects are concerned. Response paramaters are a different set of variables unrelated to material.

In Layman's terms, this means, play a bunch of flutes and end up with the one you feel most comfortable with and everyone agrees you sound the best on.

Joe B

You have to separate what you feel from what is actually heard in the room. They are two different things.

Well, I both felt a difference (better) with the gold riser...and everyone who listened to me noticed a difference. I got comments on it like: -it has more depth. -it is warmer sounding. -more dynamic contrast. And my favorite: -it has that certain something to it that I love about good flute playing...whereas the others don't (ah, the words of a trumpet friend...didn't really tell me much, but I like it anyways).

Also, I have been trying to look some things up online (I seem to remember some of this stuff from high school physics, and then in college, as a music major, we were recommended to take a physics of sound course). Don't different metals have different levels of harmonics? Meaning, if you had a tuning rod of silver and one of gold, they would resonate differently???

Just some more thoughts

<Added>

Oh, and I am not currently looking for a flute...just trying to further knowledge. :)

Don't different metals have different levels of harmonics? Meaning, if you had a tuning rod of silver and one of gold, they would resonate differently???

Yes but that is irrelevant in this case because the sound output measured from the tube vibration itself is less than .1% which is not audible.

The metal grain structure affects the boundary layer interaction with the air column and the overall MASS is different with different materials. Resonance of the metal itself is not a factor unless it becomes damping where the threshold of sympathetic vibration with the standing wave occurs. That robs the standing wave of energy which will lower all the resonance peaks.(inefficiency) (That is not a property of the metal type itself, but a consequence of it's stiffness for it's thickness and the interaction of those properties when vibration in the form of pressure nodes are introduced into it.)

A very indirect relation. There is no DIRECT cause and effect relationship. It is more coincidental by properties of dependent functions (the metal's natural properties dictate its limits).

Joe B

Thank you, jbutky, for your illuminating reply.

I can't get "technical" here --- in all honesty, all I can tell you is the difference I hear --- and the difference which my listeners hear.

I tried two "hand-made" Emersons -- one without the gold embouchure plate, the other with. There was a distinct difference in the sound.

Despite what others say, I will never be convinced that there is NOT a difference in metal construction. Solid silver, simply sounds better than nickle-bodied/silver-plated.

Gold, certainly brings forth its own properties. This could explain why so many are (those who can afford it) choose gold.

I think the only difference lies in the fact that solid silver, or platinum, provides a sharper, more edgy tone, which helps with projection --- which is the difference in "being heard" in symphony playing, vs "being lost".

Gold is very appropriate for recitals or recordings.

But, it has been my finding that a gold embouchrure plate does, indeed, help the "quality" (for want of a better word) of the sound emanating from the flute. The combination of a solid silver flute, with a gold embouchure appears to strike "the golden mean", wherein one can achieve sharpness, and edgy tone --- yet is mollified and given a "warmer" tone when fitted with a gold embouchure plate.

Just my opinon.

Regards, Jim

Despite what others say, I will never be convinced that there is NOT a difference in metal construction. Solid silver, simply sounds better than nickle-bodied/silver-plated. Gold, certainly brings forth its own properties. This could explain why so many are (those who can afford it) choose gold. I think the only difference lies in the fact that solid silver, or platinum, provides a sharper, more edgy tone, which helps with projection --- which is the difference in "being heard" in symphony playing, vs "being lost".

There are differences. The reasons used to explain the differences are often way off track.

One must remember that flutemakers balance a whole lot of variables to make a flute do what it does. Given any particular material, you can come make adjustments to move something in a particular direction tonally or response wise. The limits are dictated by the inherent properties of the metal being used. Certain metals control various parameters better or worse when compared to other types and so we qualify certain tonal/response aspects with any particular metal.

It's also why we have hodge-podges and different bits and types of metals in various places. That is an attempt to make certain variables conform to a variable that the maker wants to control.

So we know it is done. Hopefully, everyone understands the whys and hows a bit more now.

Joe B

Thank you all for your input. I find this very interesting...if there is any more feed back, I am enjoying reading about this. It just surprises me that we drop soooooooooooo much money into the metal of an instrument if it doesn't actually make any difference. Could have saved thousands and just stuck with a silver plated instrument...or so it is sounding.

<Added>

Wow...I put that up at the same time more comments came in...Thanks a ton, Joe B, for the good info :)

There are a few exceptions, though.

- The denser the metal is, the thinner you can make the walls, which helps the sound a bit.(projection and speed and so on IF you make it that way) But it's very small. Kind of like a tonal coloration - like how a wooden and metal piccolo sound slightly different even though the accuracy and overall tone are identical(or often too close to tell).

I think the reason people like the gold and heavier metals is because most makers use the same thickness for their silver and gold flutes, which results in a heavier wall design - and gets it a slightly darker sound, more like the original wood ones were.

Of course, there are wood flutes as well if you want to go that route(Yamaha makes a superb one that I lust after).

But that's only if they do that.(you can also get the same effect with a heavy wall option on several flutes in silver as well for a LOT less money.

I also have a crystal/glass flute as well(Hall, $60 and worth every penny) and it's a flute. Just has a different tonal quality to it is all.

As for headjoints, metal does matter here. I'm currently saving up for a titanium headjoint as it resonates and responds *much* faster than anything else.

http://www.landellflutes.com/-Research/PDF/junruwu.pdf

But the body and certainly the keys? Not nearly as pronounced.

i recently got to try a gold burkart flute and it was soooooo amaaazzzinnngg. the upper register spoke so sweetly. it was like a dream. but then i took a look at the head joint and it was this square weirdly shaped lip plated thing that id never seen before. i highly doubt i had such luck playing that flute because it was gold. it was also 14 thousand dollars...any instrument that is that high end better perform well.

I would expect that, especially in the case of the Yamaha 400/300 vs. the 200 flutes, that the more expensive flutes would have had more attentive finish/padding work. (Just a guess.)

I have put expensive headjoints into my Pearl 500 student flute (comparable in general to the Yamaha 200) and the sound is great. The difference between that and my Yamaha 800 soldered-tone hole model being mostly the feel and fast response of the keys.

I do have a really delightful wood headjoint (Powell Philharmonic cut) that sounds great. I compared it when I bought it to a Yamaha EC cut wood headjoint that was just ok- nowhere near the silver EC heads that I had played, and also not nearly the HJ that the wood Powell is.

So I do think that material will make a difference, but probably mostly in the riser and headjoint.

It appears, from the feed-back, that "riser" and "head-joints" are the determining factors in the "final" sound of the flute --- both to the player and listeners.

However, as pointed out before, it is often the "artist behind the instrument" who will make the difference. I don't agree with this --- but it's my opinion. I do not think Jean Baxtresser would sound the same on a $300 "student" flute, as she does on her "pro" instrument. I'm on thin ice, here, but it's my opinion.

Thanks to all, for your remarkable insights and contributions which will help everyone on the forum.

I grew up in an age where "student model" flutes were "stamped-out", in Elkhart(sp?) Indiana. Selmer, Conn, Bettoney(sp?), etc. They were always nickel/sliver-plated bodies.

I quickly "heard" the difference when I got my first "serious" flute, a Haynes, in the 60s', which, needless to say, was solid silver - hand-made.

Despite all of the technical information provided, I will never believe that the "metal" doesn't make a difference in the sound, I don't care who is playing it.

I actually can tell when someone is playing a silver, gold or platinum (usually head-joint) flute. Titanium --- I don't know anything about.

In closing, I tested a "hand-made" Emerson (yes, Elkhart, IN) flute: solid silver, low B, --- and with (the optional) gold embouchure plate. I was significantly impressed with a flute that cost some $1,000 --- and would have pit it against other flutes, costing far more. The tone was lovely; it had the "sharp-edge", when you were looking for; yet, the gold embouchure plate helped mollify the sound, so it you were looking for a "sweeter" tone --- you got it, regardless of which register. And it really brought out the (so-called "French" tone) better than my Haynes.

I'm just not convinced, despite the remarkable insights, jbutky and others have contributed, that there is not a difference in metals. "Thin wall", "Heavy wall" --- that, I understand.

I guess I'm just confused, with so much "tech" information that has been provided.

Thanks, everyone, for your feed-back. I'm glad other members' questions are being answered in an articulate, well-presented fashion on such an important subject, as it (ultimately) has to do with selecting "just the right flute".

Best regards: Jim

i dont care what anyone else says. from blind testing to just plain ol' listening, ive always favored the sound of gold. i really think there is a difference and so do many others. why? i dont know. i still dont own any instrument with gold, but thats my personal opinion.

enjoy!

Thank you, mbrowne for your feed-back.

I agree that gold is probably the best metal devised for flutes.

My only opinion is that "gold" has a more "mellow-subdued" sound, which is more appropriate for Chamber music / recitals / recordings, than it is for symphony playing, wherein "projection" is very important. And only silver or Platinum (and Titanium) stands in the forefront.

Again, I agree that gold is the best metal for flutes: whether "heavy wall" or "thin wall".

Thank you for your feed-back!

Regards, Jim

I definitely feel a sound difference and feel like I hear a sound difference when I have gold on a riser. It plays differently to me and does vibrates differently. Even in blind tests.

I have wondered before if I am not mistaking the sound difference. Could it be that I am feeling the difference and getting it confused with the sound? Does that make sense? At any rate, I know what I like to play on at least. Funny thing is, is that I have never played a gold flute that I have liked before, but I prefer gold risers.