I have wondered before if I am not mistaking the sound difference. Could it be that I am feeling the difference and getting it confused with the sound? Does that make sense? At any rate, I know what I like to play on at least. Funny thing is, is that I have never played a gold flute that I have liked before, but I prefer gold risers.

Yes Kara, that does happen, but there is a correlation. The feel is always more noticeable to the player. The sound difference to the audience may only be very subtle, but the feel may be more than subtle.

The first time I posted my First Act flute recording, it was when a thread like this came out that the flute and its material matters a lot. I posted that recording and said to everyone on that list, OK what am I playing on? I got answers of all sorts from are you experimenting with a new metal alloy, various combinations of metal and high end brands where mentioned, headjoint cuts etc.

I've taken that flute out in public concerts, in Church, and had people comment to me when they couldn't see me (I was up in the loft) that my gold flute sounded great. I had to tell them that it was my $179 special today, not the gold one.

Am I comfortable playing high end stuff on a cheap flute? No, it requires a lot of effort. But the audience doesn't know that. They only hear the end result. So again, I say, you have to pick a flute that is comfortable for you AND produces the sound that you want. YOU are the player. YOU are the music. YOU must bring it out. Make sure you have the proper tools, and that is all that a flute is.

I always sound like me on whatever flute I play, but there are subtle differences. You want to be able to enjoy the flute that you play. MANY, MANY flutists miss that point because they are Brand blinded or their teacher said they NEED to have this or that. That is ALL a bunch of HOOEY.

The right flute coupled to the individual player is a beautiful thing whatever the flute ends up being. The more comfortable you are with any particular flute, the more you will be able to exploit its potential.

As a retailer, I had seen people come in and want specific brands or types of flutes and when a different flute was put in their hands produced a result they didn't expect...well...there's where the dilema and problem comes in because some teachers and pros dictate to their students what brand they should have. That is shameful and a disservice to the player who needs to find a suitable instrument.

Let the flute pick you. Don't listen to anybody except for honest feedback on what they hear from your playing. Pick it up, play it, live with it for awhile. What's right for me, is not necessarily right for you or anyone else. And if anyone tells you you must get a particular brand, well, I have NO respect for them in their understanding of such things. That phenomenon merely reeks of brand snobbery and is a disservice to any individual flute player.

My philosophical article on fluting as such can be found here:

http://www.langemusic.com/Articles/flutist.htm

For your consideration and discussion if you choose.

Joe B

First...Kara, I totally agree. I love gold risers, but I have not found a gold head I personally enjoy. I also agree that for certian people that combination may not be good...and that I am sure some people love gold heads.

Second, I TOTALLY agree that brand snobbery is crap. I teach at a music store (much easier for my recruiting) and I constantly am standing in the store and one of the employees comes to me with a customer saying...I want a Yamaha flute, what model is best for me. Or, I only want a Gemmie because of the price range...etc. That drives me crazy. I always try to pull together as many flutes as possible for my students to try...even ones I don't really like.

As I have said...I am not currently looking for a flute. I just constantly hear people saying things on the forum about different metals and stuff...and wanted to know 'why'
Happy Fluting!!!

I don't question the statements that gold risers sound better, but I do question the reason. Is it due to the gold, or is it better workmanship, e.g., added attention to undercutting the embouchure, since the flutist is paying a premium for the gold riser, or some other reason.

Dear dio:

Perhaps you could expound a little more on "undercutting" embourchures.

I've heard this expression before, but don't "get it".

I know that head-joints are very important.

I think other members would also like to know, when you find the time.

Thanks so much:

Jim

http://www.langemusic.com/Articles/flutist.htm

Good words, Joe! That was a really nice read. I really like your ideas!

as many people have pointed out i don't know much about flutes, but i do have a periodic table which i understand, so from a scientific point of view i can tell you

Ag or silver has 47 protons, 47 electrons, 61 neutrons and an atomic mass of 108 it is more reactive then gold but still quite unreactive due to the amount of electrons in the outershells
and au or gold has 79 protons, 79 electrons, 118 neutrons and an atomic mass of 197 it is very unreactive due to the amount of shells protecting the nucleas

i would say a gold flute would last an extremely long time due to reactivity (thoguh costing a fortune so not for the faint hearted) but silver kept in good conditon (regually went over with a polishing cloth to stop oxides) would also remain unreactive for years
but thats looking at each element in its pure state the density would depend wheter it was pure or a compound the density would also change in the differant istopes of each metal there is other things but i am not nerdy enough yet to know enough about
but thats just some science for you (yes i am a huge science nerd)

Perhaps you could expound a little more on "undercutting" embourchures.

Jim,

I’m conjecturing that the material, gold, is not the primary contributing factor to the flute sound(ing better).

Gold is more expensive than silver, so a gold chimney may be shorter (less gold) than a silver chimney to reduce cost. In this case, the height of the chimney may be the more significant factor effecting sound than the material type.

Since the flute maker is presumably charging more for a flute with a gold riser, there may be highly skilled hand workmanship, i.e., undercutting, play testing, etc. The comparable flute with a silver chimney may be mostly machine made with little play testing.

The following Yamaha web pages show how undercutting may be done, and examples of different cuts.

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/winds/fact/how/flute/tour1/p_main.htm

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/winds/fact/how/flute/tour2/p_main.htm#emb

Hope this helps.

dio

<Added>

Make sure you scroll down to the middle of the second web page fo information on embouchure hole & chimney.

Thak you so much, dio. I will go to the site links you referred me to.

I'm condfident that the other members of the fourm will appreciate this, as well.

Best regards: Jim

Gold is more expensive than silver, so a gold chimney may be shorter (less gold) than a silver chimney to reduce cost. In this case, the height of the chimney may be the more significant factor effecting sound than the material type.

Sorry, But that is not the way it works. Gold, silver or any material for that matter is not the determining factor for riser height. Riser height is determined for it's playing characteristic. Whatever height the maker decides it will be, is not determined by the cost of the metal. It needs to be a certain height and if you want it made out of that material, you simply pay extra for the metal.

Riser height affects a few things, one of which is player feel. (Too long and complicated an answer on a forum like this to explain). Taller risers are more resistant and favor the lower register, shorter risers, favor the higher register and are less resistant. The range of a riser height varies by as much as .020" at the extremes.

That being said, a flute maker balances a lot of variables to sculpt a particular feel and response from a flute. A flute is a complete system in and of itself. A player mated to that system introduces many other variables.

If you know that you gravitate towards certain variables that you like, that makes perfect sense. If you measure the crucial variables out, you can pretty much tell whether or not you will like a flute if you want to spend the time to do that. It's easier to just pick it up and play it.

I'm not going to even get into hole geometry and tapers which are huge components to sound and player feedback.

Joe B

Sorry, But that is not the way it works. Gold, silver or any material for that matter is not the determining factor for riser height. Riser height is determined for it's playing characteristic.

I agree that it is not the determining factor, however, a maker may favor a smaller (weightwise) gold riser with "optimized" playing characteritics, for cost/price considerations. Professional, handmade flutes are an exception.

I agree that it is not the determining factor, however, a maker may favor a smaller (weightwise) gold riser with "optimized" playing characteritics, for cost/price considerations. Professional, handmade flutes are an exception.

There are other ways around that, see my other post on risers. Weight of the riser does not figure into a flutemaker's concerns for it's performance. It's height and final geometry are the important features be it gold, silver, platinum, or plastic.

You do not find Gold risers on non handmade flutes. It's just not cost effective. The riser would cost as much as the flute in some cases..So they don't do it.

Joe B

Thank you, dio and jbutky for your enlightenment(s) on this subject.

I appreciate it, as well as (I'm sure) all of the members of the forum will.

Best regards to both of you: Jim

Joe B,

I see that the Pearl Maestra series has a model with a silver headjoint with gold riser (& lip plate), and a model with the with an all silver headjoint.

Do you know if the headjoint designs, particularly the riser, are identical except for material?

I made an album for promotional purposes for Jupiter several years ago, many who have heard it don't realize that a number of tracks were recorded using a JFL511 which is silver plated, also did some with JFL611 which is silver headjoint...the fact is they are good instruments, they play well in tune with a good scale and are very responsive...at the end of the day it is the player,

many prefer silver and gold because of the feel and the warmer tone

I see that the Pearl Maestra series has a model with a silver headjoint with gold riser (& lip plate), and a model with the with an all silver headjoint. Do you know if the headjoint designs, particularly the riser, are identical except for material?[

All the Japan models are shipped with the forte headjoint and riser materials of many different types are available.

They are all handcut, so of course there is always a slight variation although the basic template and specs are all the same.

So yes the design is the same, 2 designs available called forte and vivo. The Pristine silver is a heavier wall and .970 silver but the same cut and riser options apply. Thickness of the tube and lip plate is measured and the risers are trimmed before soldering together to meet the end specification for overall riser height.

The Material of the headjoint on each model usually matches whatever material the body is made of as standard. We do get requests for subbing materials such as an 18K head on a 14K body. But the other specs are otherwise the same.

Joe B