Thanks Bilbo. I now understand the silence.
I have much interest for this technique, although it is probably well beyond my present capabilities. I have questioned my teacher about it and she either cannot do it or just doesn't want to show it to me yet.

I know two soloists that use it and I can't really tell when they are using it. One is Aurèle Nicolet in one of the Vivaldi Concertos (I think it is La Notte"). He sustains a middle D for about 43 seconds. We tried once in class and the best I could do was 25 seconds and my teacher reached 30 seconds, (I do not recall the exact times).

The other is Sharon Bezaly,a very young but reknowed artist (at least here). I have two friends who are wind soloists (not flute, however) and they master this technique, though both play double reeds (basoon and oboe). May be for flute it is more difficult.

Concerning the role of orchestra directors, I detect you are (most probably) being ironic , but just in case, let me friendly disagree:

It is true that they just wave hands and arms, jump and gesticulate in various manners.

But I am sure that you know that what we hear (and see) when the orchestra is in concert is the end product of a previous work, one that sometimes has taken lots of time and efforts.

Good directors work a lot with the orchestra in rehearsals, explaining (and demanding) in what way the parts are to be played. That is why the process is called "interpretation" of a work. Many are also older instrumentists and they can address quite technical aspects of the playing of some instruments. T

I have been lucky to been able to attend a few symphonic rehearsals and the role of the director was always very important. In all cases I was present the director was a guest director (not the permanent director, in case there is one).

In my modest present choir activity, the director has the additional function to give the necessary entries, apart from the more subtle shades such as dynamics, tempi, voice colour and a few others. It is true we are not professionals in the choir, but I believe this also applies to professional ensembles, be it voice or instruments.

And we all know an orchestra playing the same work can sound and arise feelings quite different, depending on how it is directed.

All this to try to dismantle the popular myth that directors are superfluous, overpaid leaders that contribute little or nothing to the success of a performance.

I do not know if L. Stokowsky at his 90' could work as intensely as I have seen other directors do with other orchestras, but no doubt the example shown on the youtube link you kindly provided was sublime.





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reknowed (word?) I meant: well known, sorry...

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Not a good day for my English today: "arise" should be "arouse feelings"

Dear jose_luis:

I see that Bilbo answered your question.

But, could either of you tell me what "circular breathing is" ---- I hope this isn't an inappropriate question, but I believe it is related to this post.

Thanks!

Regards, Jim

I'm not expert on this and my post was more a question than an assessment.

Circular breathing is a technique that allows the player to sustain a note for a very long time without interrupting it for breathing. The player uses a "reserve" of air stored in the mouth/cheeks and forces this reserve while quickly inhaling through the nose. I believe it can also be used in slurred notes (not sure what happens when tonguing)

I believe it is well adapted to double reed instruments because the cheeks take more of an active part in the playing, while in the flute they are normally more or less relaxed. But I am sure it is also used with the flute, as I mention in a next post.



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a next post should be "a previous post close to this one".

Dear fellow flutologists,

1)Jim,
Circular breathing is where you can play a very long continuous note orseries of notes by breathing in while blowing out. This is done by storing the air in your cheeks like a squirrel with nuts, and blowing that little bit of air out with cheek pressure while breathing in through your nose. It takes practice. Some players like Kenny "G" Gorlick (sax) can do it well.

2) For Jose_Luis.. I mostly am kidding about conductors. Shooting them for flailing about on stage and all...
This is the truth that I believe: Conductors are THE musician on stage that is playing the instrument that they are conducting which is an orchestra, choir, a band or whatever group that they are conducting. They are ultimately responsible for the tempo, timing and musical interpretation of that group and in that sense they are a dictator. It is up to the individual musician to give their part of what the conductor wants and how he wants it. I have mixed feelings about them because I've played with ones that approach the podium like a demanding dictator and others that approach it with respect for the musician's intelligence. I think that the intelligent conductor uses the correct tactic where it applies best to get what they want from the group.

That being written, the player in certain circumstances (such as solos where they are basically alone) have somewhat of a control over their part and with the better groups, the soloist is given that control by a conductor. I think that if we inspect this particular Debussy piece further, that this piece would be a prime example of that type of an unusual situation.

So, I would agree that Stokowski was probably not at his youthful prime physically and that others would be more agressive with their input and control but I would also trust that if Leopold Stokowski was not leading the flutist, he knew that it was in the best interest of that particular performance experience to not do so.

I would like to add that in Stokowsky concert, the soloist plays for 22 seconds and then (second 25th of the video) the director very clearly signs to cut the sound (and most probably the soloist breaths, he sure is no masochist).

Or so I understand his signs.

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Bilbo, I was sure you were kidding -basically.

But I thought it was a good opportunity to attack a myth concerning conductors. Such a myth, though widely extended, is probably not popular in a Forum like this, with so many musicians and professionals, but I felt like dismantling it once more.

To say the truth, when I was younger (and much farther from music), I could not understand what the guy was really doing and why directors were so famous and important. But this was a long, long time ago.

Or it could just be that I also like to see my own opinions on black over white....

"I would like to add that in Stokowsky concert, the soloist plays for 22 seconds and then (second 25th of the video) the director very clearly signs to cut the sound (and most probably the soloist breaths, he sure is no masochist)."
True Jose, but also note that when Stokowski conducts the Orchestra is generally a slight bit behind his "ictus". and as we both mentioned we don't know was was discussed in rehearsal. I think that this piece is fairly difficult to conduct as the soli are passed between players and he is trying to convey to the group as a whole the meter. So, when he does beat as in the beginning solo, it is for the group to mark their place. Kind of like passing a message from the soloist to the group. Remember that the sound of the musicians carries out and not so well back.

Interesting to see how enriching the examination of a few seconds of music can be...

You are far more experienced than me and I would have taken his double sign with both index fingers as a signal to conclude the phrase including a kind of short interruption before the final three notes.

But as you say, it could well mean something different and probably it was discussed in rehersal.

Do you know if L. S was the London symphonic director at that time (1972) or was a guest conductor?

With their permanent directors, the big first level orchestras sometimes develop a kind of understanding with some conductors that surpass our understanding (and sometimes the musicians understanding). They do not how it works, but surely it does work.

Something like this happens, for example, with the Amsterdam Concertgebaum orchestra and Bernard Haitink. So was I told by one prominent member of that orchestra.

my young son was waving his arms like a conductor one day, my wife asked me if I wanted him to be a conductor and I replied "No, I want him to have friends"

That is an interesting aspect too. Do you mean that conductors make more enemies than friends?

I had the idea that many are very respected people and probably had no problems in making friends.

Perhaps are they so dictatorial as to unbalance this (fame) advantage?

Dear Bilbo and jose_luis:

I enjoyed your dialogue and interchange and learned a lot.

And, Patrick, I enjoyed your remark.

As a side-bar, if you'll permit, I once asked one of my teachers why the flutists in the CSO are so "soft" --- she replied that that's because Fritz Reiner doesn't like flutists.

The point I'm making is that conductors often consider themselves placed in "lofty" positions, and yes, can be quite dictatorial.

They also make more money than G-d has, and this only further inflates IMO their ego(s).

I really appreciate all of the info everyone has brought to this post. I'm confident that many of us enjoyed the repartee and info provided.

Best regards, Jim

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ADDED:

And, to Tim: hope you are learning a lot from the great info that has been provided.

And hope it helps you. Good luck with the "Prelude".

Regards, Jim

Bilbo:

I am (as usual) awe-inspired by your description of "circular" breathing.

I wanted to mention one thing that may well address this.

I watched a video clip of Rhonda Larson in a performance, where she appeared to be playing, even though (it was apparent) that she was "breathing in" at the same time.

Perhaps this best displays "circular" breathing?

Sorry for the quotes but I don't know how else to bring out "points".

I will allow that it could have been a "lag" between the audio portion and the video portion, but .... it may well demonstrate "circular" breathing, as jose_luis commented on, and upon which you elaborated.

If anyone is interested in the html, I'll send you there --- just post a request.
Regards, Jim

I really hate this little thing as I think it makes your tone thin, but try making your aperture ghole a little smaller so you can manage the last three notes.

"You are far more experienced than me and I would have taken his double sign with both index fingers as a signal to conclude the phrase including a kind of short interruption before the final three notes.
But as you say, it could well mean something different and probably it was discussed in rehersal. "

Dear Jose Luis, I think that you are correct but that they (Cond. And soloist)are in agreement and that L.S. was partly helping the soloist through a ritardando and also leading the others into their entrance. More later in next post on this.

I think that he conducted a few London concerts around the early 70s:"His last public appearance in the UK took place at the Royal Albert Hall, London, on May 14, 1974. "
From Wikipedia.


Jim,
This "lag" issue with YouTube timing of vid to sound is noted. Some are really off for some reason. I think that the Stokowski "Faune" lag isn't too far off it seems to me. So I can't say with your example what is happening but a person doing circular breathing will not be breathing in through their mouth when inhaling. They will be breathing in through their nose and still playing the note with forward air (of course) from the embouchure.

I would like to thank Bilbo for posting the link of a video that proves my point of "conductor-free". I appreciate it very much.

In relation to this Faune Stokowski performance (Both part 1 and 2), I have been reading a book entitled: Note Grouping by James Morgan Thurmond where he writes that:

Music is basically up beats and down beats.
Any note can be classified as either one or the other.
In 2 beat patterns such as 2/4 there are one up beat for every down beat. This is a reflection on our respiration while we are awake which is generally of equal breath lengths of inhalation and exhalation.

In 3 beat patterns
such as 3/4 or 9/8 it is indicative of our breathing while asleep. We are breathing in at a rate of about twice as long as we breathe out. It is interesting to note that this Debussy French Impressionism piece could be compared to a dream-like mood.
As Stokowski conducts (Watch all of it. like ...both Part 1 and 2 it almost dovetails exactly so you don't get lost) he lengthens the upbeats (The Last beat or note sequence in just about every measure as in applying a slight ritardando to extend this above concept or mood of a dream-like state). Needless to say, you can't put a metronome to this type of performing. Combine this with the harmonies and melodic content and you really have some effective music happening.
In final, that book's author is a student of the Philadelphia school of wind playing where Kincaid Fl. and an Oboe player named Tabuteau as well as the French Horn Player named Anton Horner were members of the Philly WW5 and the Philly Orch. at the very time that Stokowski was waving his arms at that very same group. ORiginally I heard a performance of Beethoven's 5th Sym after reading that book and realized what Beethoven was doing in the piece because it was a prime example in the book of the use of up and down beats, but this Faune performance is very impressive as well.