"I would like to thank Bilbo for posting the link of a video that proves my point of "conductor-free". I appreciate it very much."
Oh G-B
absolutely no problem! because I had the chance to take the time to actually listen to this performance.It really does show throughout where the Conductor who knows what they want out of the group can trade off between leading them and following them.

One time I saw a performance of L. Bernstein guest conducting the Vienna Phil. on a Strauss Waltz. The Vienna Phil is "THE" Strauss experts. They play his Waltzes like no other because it is in their blood. Timing and such. Bernstein, although a great musician, was like a duck out of water with this group that day and with great mastery of his baton, he graciously followed their lead to the end.


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Not Bernstein conducting.
But try to put a metronome to the 3 beat pattern of the underlying harmony : 1.2..3..1.2..3..etc...
during the waltz section after the intro. Then the rubato is on top....

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aBwAjEtvXyI

I agree that the Vienna Phill are the masters for viennese music. And yes, they carry it in their blood or genes or something like that. So much that they often amuse themselves and the audience by playing beautifully a waltz or a march without any conductor. Part of the show, yes, but this requires a perfect coordination and agreement on every detail and probably reflects their intense previous work in rehearsing.
And still it must reflect the conductor's style, like a phantom director seeing and hearing what he and the musicians have accomplished. Like directing from another dimension...

The theory relating up/down beats with the breathing modes of wakefulness/sleep is very interesting but it escapes in part my understanding, because I lack enough formation in music theory.

My experience in ensembles is very reduced an limited only to voice choirs. So far, I have been member of four different choirs (with four different directors) and have experienced in some cases the dictatorship-approaching nature of some directors.

But none has ever advanced anything related to this idea, although breathing in choirs is a very delicate matter.

I will listen to Karajan's interpretation of the Domnau with utmost attention and listen again (for the nth time) L.S's Faune. This new approach could expand our (or at least, mine) perception of complex music and my understanding of why particular a performance can differ so much from another.

I think that the Vienna P. with Karajan is another example of the mysteriously deep emphaty and comprehension between orchestra and conductor. But sorry, no friends in the Vienna phillarmonic, I cannot confirm this...

Very interesting contribution, Bilbo!.

"But none has ever advanced anything related to this idea, although breathing in choirs is a very delicate matter. "

Probably not. There is a bit of a problem with this in that with a choir (or instrumentalist including string player) they may have a pickup (Anacrusis) on something like the 4th beat in a measure which should sound like an inhale as it's being played BUT they actually are taught to inhale on the 3rd previous beat (for the timing) and the problem is that the 3rd bet is a down beat -in feeling. Watch the strings though because they are taught bowing and this becomes natural because the up bow is played differently from the down bow. See this 5th sym. in 2/4 meter.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcR1ZS2hVo

The violins play: up-down-up DOWN.... as they are in this style. The first three eighth notes are pickups to the longer DOWN but even this second of the three is somewhat of a down beat. These first three eights notes have to lead to the big Down beat very surely. This happens over and over again throughout the mvt.. Even if a measure has 4 eighth notes, it's always sounded + 2 + ONE to restate this theme over and over again. Like an obsessive/compulsive person saying, "i Can not !STOP!". <(I use caps and ! for emphasis here)

WoW! This is getting increasingly complex. Pushing me to my limits to follow your reasonig.

I do not have much idea of how strings are bowed (probably it's right the time to learn a little about it).

I know in 4/4 the 1st and 3rd beats are strong and 2nd and 4th beats are weak. In 2/4 it is 1st strong and 2 weak. So they are stressing beats the opposite way (sort of anacrucis) to convey this so noticeable and effective rhythm to the piece?

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OOPS! reasoning

Yes Jose Luis.

Even if you have four 16th notes in one beat, the 1st and third 16th may be viewed as down beats and the 2nd and 4th are as pickups.

The first beat in the measure is strong to mark the meter. The other beats are going to lead the listener to that first beat.

To Jose_Luis:

"I know two soloists that use it and I can't really tell when they are using it. One is Aurèle Nicolet in one of the Vivaldi Concertos (I think it is La Notte"). He sustains a middle D for about 43 seconds. We tried once in class and the best I could do was 25 seconds and my teacher reached 30 seconds, (I do not recall the exact times). The other is Sharon Bezaly,a very young but reknowed artist (at least here). "

These two people are fine examples of great flutists trained int eh Paris Tradition and I think that their capabilities for holding out a long note may exceed 45 seconds if necessary. Although I don't think that holding out a long note is a priority for great playing it is possible to hold out a tone for as long as you can hold your breath with proper management. Of course it's easier if you play somethign like a low A at pp with a really focused tone rather than blasting a High C at FF.
I'm not sure that Nicolet could circular breathe (or not) but he is/was one of my all time greats as far as I'm concerned. He was great at a time where I'd say that he was exlipsed by the showman, Rampal. I have been given a recording of the Nicolet masterclass on Syrinx (It's all in German and about 55 minutes worth of teaching) and the info and performances in this is simply "primo". From what I've heard he's still alive at about 81 years of age but he isn't ging to be playing anymore :-( If you want to hear him, try to buy his Bach Flute Sonatas that was originally out on vinyl. Most of the original release is available converted to CD.

Dear jose_luis and Bilbo:

Thank you so much for your repartee and valuable info you both provided to this post, for Tim.

I have a question to ask (either of you) ---- how does the use of "wide-heavy" vibrato effect how much breath you have left to accomplish this difficult opening passage?

I'm able to accomplish it, as long as I stay away from wide/heavy vibrato. I'm under the opinion that the use of (such) greatly diminishes the air you have left to play the passage?

e.g., how on earth can Ms Baxtresser play this passage with her wide/heavy vibrato? Is she using an oxygen mask every 5 or 10 measures? I don't get it.

http://www.jeannebaxtresser.com/music/collection1.mp3

Appreciate your feedback.

Regards, Jim. (It might also have an impact on Tim's playing).?

I have a question to ask (either of you) ---- how does the use of "wide-heavy" vibrato effect how much breath you have left to accomplish this difficult opening passage?

I don't know about the vibrato, but it's worth bearing in mind that the passage in question is a mere three and one-half measures at a "tres modere" (imagine diacritical marks) tempo. It doesn't involve rapid notes or great leaps. The flute has a reputation as one of the most agile instruments. If this is a "difficult passage" something is askew (and I don't see how the tiny thing deserves such a lengthy thread either).

"If this is a "difficult passage" something is askew (and I don't see how the tiny thing deserves such a lengthy thread either)."

Hi scotch!

You know, there is a sort of a tradition here to use an open thread to discuss other related or not-so-much related issues; some of us (me included) do enjoy this, but others probably don't. No doubt this extended use makes a thread longer than it should be if it remained strictly within the original subject. But I think this makes the place more interesting and some of us can learn lots about other derived subjects.

The problem I see is that opening a new thread each time a new subject jumps in would make the discussion lose spontaneity.

I appeal to your well proven tolerance to allow us this minor misuse of the Forum order and its tacit rules.

Also, Tim asked a specific question about his own difficulty to play this solo in one breath with the tempo his band director was imposing; it's not so much the difficulty of the passage itself what has been discussed here.

Please take into account that big problems for one of us can be tiny problems for others more experienced members; this is the basis of the wide interest and usefulness of this Forum.

Those who know the "how-to" can have the satisfaction of having helped those who receive the much wanted/needed advise and who can only reward them with their gratitude.

And discussion among people similar levels of knowledge and/or experience can also be enriching for them and for those of us that listen (read) what's going on, silently but eagerly.

This thread has 52 post to this moment, but has been opened over one thousand times. This is what I refer to with the "wide interest" of certain subjects.


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OOPS!
for others more experienced = for other more exper...

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OOPS!
for others more experienced = for other more exper...

Well Jim,
Baxtresser plays beautifully (of course).
How she does this is with careful embouchure control and carefully moderated breath support. To put it simply, she isn't wasting any air.
Not only is this "very Moderate" as Scotch points out it is in the low range and relatively quietly played. The average player wastes air on the low notes because they don't spend the woodshed time on the Moyse, De La Sonorite book or other such exercises to develop the low note embouchure muscles. SO, I don't equate a wide or fast vibrato with blowing lots of air.

As for the length of this discussion on these few measures, I think that if you were performing this great work, it deserves as much as possible to get it right. and I have been given a recording of the Nicolet masterclass on the Debussy, Syrinx (It's all in German and about 55 minutes worth of teaching) and the info and performances in this is simply "primo".

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As an additional. This solo is one of the works that is often used as an audition piece for major symphony orchestras and is often learned in college and reviewed many times throughout the life of a flutist. So, Jean BAxtresser has probably spent hours if not days practicing these 4 or so measures to insure that they are aways going to be up to snuff. A person auditiong for a major symphony orchestra who has one chance to play their best may find that the relatively small difference between playing them better than the other 2000 applicants is the difference between landing a ~$120K USD/year job (with all the perks) in that orchestra and a job selling automobiles. So, the notes aren't many but the nuances of tone, tuning and timing are fun to investigate.

Thank you, jose-luis and Bilbo, as usual.

And Scotch: this thread is being covered as comprehesibly as possible, because it not only address (Tim's) original post, but it needed to be expounded upon by those whom are very conversant in this forum --- and to address an important question.

Sorry that you find the post(s) too long, or redundant --- but they are addressing questions that many members have.

And Bilbo and jose_luis have given us a marvelous education on the subject. Your contribution(s) are noted, as well.

Jim

Just to be clear: I don't particularly care how long the thread is in and of itself; it just seems to me the significance of this passage in terms of the piece as a whole is being distorted. It's true, of course, that since this is a flute forum we're not likely to point out how important some of the horn bits, for example, are, but it wouldn't be a bad thing if we did. The more orchestral musicians can look at the forest the better, in my opinion.

http://patachonf.free.fr/musique/debussy/partition/p01.htm

A page that has the whole of thepiece to read while listening to the themes being passed back and forth throughout the orchestra. To make it easier, if you click on a page, it takes you to the next page of the score.

Also another recording.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cuo/F2002-2.mp3
from
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cuo/audio.html
I suspect that the flutist is an Emily Shin because she does the Syrinx on the same date.

Hi Bilbo,

Do you know where I could get/buy this A. Nicolet masterclass? Even in German, that is something I would really enjoy to listen to! Is it video or audio?

Hi Jose Luis,
It's audio but the files are big and it is time consuming. I'm not sure where it actually came from originally. Uploading it is an iffy thing. Sometimes I have troubles with things timing out after a long time and to send as an email attachment may take me a whole days worth of time if it works at all. I even tried cutting the files up with a sound editor bout it wouldn't save correctly for some reason. I originally thought that it had Nicolet playing the piece but after trying to translate, I'm not so sure he plays at all on it.