Hi!

After several months of studying with my Yamaha 674 (EC cut, B foot) I still have a problem with the second octave Eb. It sounds feeble and airy, compared to surrounding notes in the same octave. It requires a lot of air pressure and changing the air stream direction (lower it a little) to have it sound just barely acceptable. Other notes are OK. Probably not a pad problem, the flute is fairly new.

Anybody else having this problem?
Could it be a known problem of the EC cut?
Or a cork position problem?
Or just my technique problem?

Hi Jose-luis,
It has been my experience that if one note is out of focus then it cold be the flute or specifically the pads.
I don't think that this is the case because your flute should be in good shape and i assume that this has been an ongoing thing since you received the flute.

I would not necessarily blame the cut of the head joint. As a tecacher, id' first check your fingering. (All fingers down for high Eb)T123G#456D#.

then I would go on to inspect the embouchure and support.

So one question would be, how is your high E3 natural and high F#3?



<Added>

Jose
Alas it was my fault that I misunderstood the octave. I was thinking of Eb3. Tomorrow, I will try my Yamaha EC and see how it is in that range.

After several months of studying with my Yamaha 674 (EC cut, B foot) I still have a problem with the second octave Eb. It sounds feeble and airy, compared to surrounding notes in the same octave. It requires a lot of air pressure and changing the air stream direction (lower it a little) to have it sound just barely acceptable.

You could have a combination of problems. The most obvious is simply that the venting for the Eb is too little. If that is the case, the foot joint keys are probably also a little low adding to the problem. It is also possible that the headcork needs an adjustment as well since E and Eb in that octave are affected by stopper placement as a result of the bore to length ratio and a vent misplacement problem.

You simply need a good tech to look at it for setup issues. Nothing here is out of the ordinary.

Joe B

After several months of studying with my Yamaha 674 (EC cut, B foot) I still have a problem with the second octave Eb. It sounds feeble and airy, compared to surrounding notes in the same octave. It requires a lot of air pressure and changing the air stream direction (lower it a little) to have it sound just barely acceptable.

You could have a combination of problems. The most obvious is simply that the venting for the Eb is too little. If that is the case, the foot joint keys are probably also a little low adding to the problem. It is also possible that the headcork needs an adjustment as well since E and Eb in that octave are affected by stopper placement as a result of the bore to length ratio and a vent misplacement problem.

You simply need a good tech to look at it for setup issues. Nothing here is out of the ordinary.

Joe B

Sorry about the double post. I think 8notes had a hiccup.

I notice I might have defined the note wrongly. It is the second Eb available on the flute (the note on the 4th line of the staff), not the Eb3. That is why I called it second octave Eb. Fingering for it is all fingers down except left index finger (that is, same as E2 but with RH pinky down). I have checked the problem with my teacher, I am sure about the correct fingering.

E3 and F#3 in this flute are difficult but obtainable. I remember I moved the cork position because I had problems with these notes (probably they were too sharp) and the rod mark was about 4 mm off centre. At that time I posted here about it and finally I decided to move the cork to have the rod mark centred in the blow hole.

I have slowly managed to get good sound from the instrument for practically all other notes, but Eb2 remains a problem.

And yes, my embouchure has some problems that I am still working on, such as putting too much tension, as well as the need to increase my from air column pressure.

The problem is that this note is so resistant that I can find no way to make it sound similar to its surrounding neighbours. Increasing air pressure to the limit I can will make it approach "normal" sound but this is an added difficulty in fast passages (and I have several in Haendel sonatas)

I did not have this problem with my old M3 Gemeinhardt....

After writing this last sentence, I ran to try the C foot of the M3 on the 674. It fits a little loose, but it can still be used and the Eb2 sound quality improves noticeably. It looks like it could be a venting problem?

This is why I would like to hear from other Yamaha EC/B footers, to see if there is a common problem there.





<Added>

Sorry, "same as E2" is wrong. I meant "similar to D2"

My answer is slightly misplaced, it should go before JoeB reply. I had not read it when I started my own reply to Bilbo and Lera.

Jose-Luis, I think you have great advice from previous posters about venting, pad leaks, etc.

When I test-play a different headjoint, usually it will be more notes, say 4 or 5, that sound weaker or stronger- more of an 'area' of difference rather than only one or two notes causing a problem. For example, my Miyazawa MZ-5 sounds lousy in the middle octave if you blow pretty hard, that's from about D2 to A or Ab above the staff. If you back off, they get better.

So anyway, sounds like JoeB is right about a flute problem.

Jose
Alas it was my fault that I misunderstood the octave. I was thinking of Eb3. Tomorrow, I will try my Yamaha EC and see how it is in that range.

The flute came new from Fluteworld with the cork that far off from centre, as measured with the black plastic rod that came with the instrument. I do not understand why.

After the accident,(my SOS post), the cork assembly was set by the technician, using only his metalic rod to center it seems to be a sort of professional rod, with two marks, one for piccolos on one side and other for flutes). In whole, it seems to have improved the Eb2 problem. But I still have to check the 3rd octave tuning (I need more time and I must do it with a tuner, I am not so good to do it by ear).

One thing that was corrected was tightning (sp?) the round nut that presses the cork, crown side. It was completely loose (some 3 mm away from touching the cork). Do you think this can have any effect on the Eb problem or in any other way?


<Added>

Maybe it was not 4mm off but just 3 mm (I should check my old posts)

Even 3mm is a bit of a stretch.

And as for the round nut that you mentioned, These loose things can affect the tone. I'd be suprised if you didn't notice it vibrating when you played. Also, a loose cork, (cold have happened when it was moved, loose head joint, foot joint or any leaking keys can affect the tone. I just tried a Yamaha 200 series last night that had a trill key leaking. It of course messed up the sound all the way up and down the range. I'm not saying that it's true, but it could be that Yamaha has relaxed their standards now that they have a good piece of the market or it could be that certain issues are popping up as we see a lot more of them around here. It is not uncommon for a flute to need some things from time to time as it is used.

Not really. I felt some vibration sometimes, but I thought it was normal and that I was pressing the keys too lightly (I tend to press them too hard).

My teacher did not mention anything about vibrations, so I guess they were not audible or were masked by the sound.

Now as I look back I noticed, when the the cork assembly was taken out, that the cork was quite wet on the crown side, so it could be that it leaks or leaked when the nut was not tight.

But the headjoint was still wet and it could well be that the cork got damp as it travelled along the HJ tube on his way out. With the tenon so badly damaged, I did not think of cleaning the HJ before taking it for repair. And I believe (but I'm not not sure) that the technician cleaned and dried the HJ only after the cork assembly was out.

<Added>

i.e I'm sure he cleaned the HJ after disassembling, now I can remember him passing a cloth with a chain through the empty HJ tube

Bilbo, did you try your Yamaha EC cut you told about ( 20:41 on Tuesday, February 19, 2008)?

Hi Jose_Luis
When I mean vibrations, sometimes you can hear or feel a buzzing when you play. This may be something that is just loose enough to rattle when you are playing. Sometimes it only happens on certain notes or frequencies. I believe that this is called a "sympathetic vibration." You can make a piano ring if you press the sustain pedal and then play your flute.

"...so it could be that it leaks or leaked when the nut was not tight."

The cork alone should be tight. The nut won't tighten it very much. Sometimes after a dry period, the cork will dry out and shrink and as this happens the nut may also come loose. This can happen often in the winter because of certain kinds of heat or because your house gets fdryer in the winter. I'm not sure of your winter climate over there. Here it's about 7F right now and the house furnace is constantly comming on. You probably may have just needed a new cork.

"With the tenon so badly damaged, I did not think of cleaning the HJ before taking it for repair."
That's not relevant because the tech can actually clean the HJ better with the cork removed. (But this does not mean that you should take yours out...ever....unless you have a replacement cork that will fit snugly and you know what you are doing of course.

"Bilbo, did you try your Yamaha EC cut you told about ( 20:41 on Tuesday, February 19, 2008)?"

Yes,
Just tried it and my Eb seems ok.

As you suggested, perhaps your cork may have been the culprit. It could have been anything. Embouchure, leaking pads, or loose tenons.

Something to check, I think that Joe B would know more about this but if your flute has inline keys (not offset G) then all of your main body keys should appear in a straight line of you look at the forward edges of them. If it has the offset G, then all of the other keys should be in line but the two G key cups. So, if for example the LH-1 (C key) is a tad high, it may vent too much with the C#s, D2 and Eb2. This could mean that these notes may be a bit lighter sounding in tone and tuning. Of course this assumes that the original set-up of the pads was done properly in that every pad is set in to the key cup at the proper depth. .....Now that I looked down my 684 flute, I see that my G keys are a tad high (my flutes are inline G). It probably has a slightly compressed bumper cork from the spring tension over time.

Another key to check may be the foot joint D#/Eb pinkey key. Is it opening the correct amount?
~bilbo
N.E. Ohio

"Quite a good check on tightness where it is needed is to put the crown in the wrong way around, and see how much resistance it encounters as its blanc-face end is inserted goes beyond the embouchure hole."

Micron, I'm not quite sure what you are saying in this sentence.

Jose_Luis, another important issue with intonation and tone is how far out the head joint is pulled. The relative intonation between the notes is subject to this in that a note that uses less of the tube will change pitch differently than a note that uses more of the the tube. In other words, any flute is designed to be played in tune with the head joint at a certain location and at a certain temperature. Any deviations will compromise the scale and the tone.