I have read the thread. (But I guess you don't believe in proof-reading before you publish!! There were several spelling errors.)
My problem is not with the validity of your comments or anything to that nature. My problem is only with your snobby, stuck-up, condescending nature. Would it KILL you to be a bit more polite when addressing others?

To me the difference is the same as the difference between a soprano clarinet and a soprano saxophone, The only difference is the materials made

If you LOOK for nastiness,you will probably find it. It is mostly in the mind of the beholder. And we do need to make a little allowance for cultural differences here. In my culture it is pretty common to call a spade a spade, and that is OK.

I've conversed with people from NZ on other forums and none of them are like you. Also, keep in mind that the internet is faceless and composed of everyone in the world - not just people from your country. If someone whose first language is not even English comments on your tone, that's a pretty good indicator that you need to work on your communication skills if you honestly believe you've not been offensive.

You do bring an amazing wealth of scientific knowledge to a subject that is in desparate need of dispelling myths intended to cheat people out of their money. I, personally, am glad you're here and enjoy reading your often eye-opening posts.

I can't speak for everyone, but I believe all we're asking is that you consider our feedback, do not get defensive, and make an effort to just be nice.



<Added>

But, back to the topic at hand, I asked earlier if the wall thickness of wooden flutes could account for a sound difference. Heavy wall and thin wall flutes do FEEL differently when you're playing them, but I don't know if I could HEAR a difference if I were in the audience.

Wow, this is fascinating! (not the topic though, the interactions!) I seemed to have missed the party on this one.

Well I have some comments and they relate to both the topic and the personal interactions since they go hand in hand. But I can't write it out 'til later...have to prep a lot of alto flutes today...

In defense of Micron...please don't shoot the messenger...

Joe B ('til later)

I hesitated before started this thread because the subject was prone to warm discussions and there had been quite heated debates in the past. But no doubt it has shown there is still a big intererst in the subject, only that I would not like to see it go stray and become a kind of fight, (more than usual, as least).

I suggest we try to follow these ideas as close as we can (I believe we share them, I am just putting them together here) :

- We are here to learn, have fun, share nice things and sometimes, sad situations, seeking for comfort and support. Trying to prove our points or being convinced to the point of abandoning our beliefs, if done through friendly discussions, is part of the fun.

- There are a few hundreds of forum goers here, from many parts of the world, different cultures and ways of expressing our beliefs and explain our knowledges. Some write in English as Shakespeare did and other just do their best. Spelling is also a question of the time we can dedicate to proofing and of the degree of our mastering of the language. Both things are difficult to change.

- Although all of us try to be polite in the general sense, it is true that sometimes we do not succeed in conveying the actual sense of our assessments. It has happened to me and I would say, to most, if not all, of us.

- The only way to coexist and avoid the amplification of small discrepancies or interpretations of the perceived "mode" or "manners", is to be very tolerant and skip over those perceived red points we now and then find in any post.

This exercise in tolerance is most useful, not only here but in real life. Out there, we must tolerate things taht some of us do not tolerate here, because we normally try to avoid physical or verbal fighting with real people. Doing otherwise would be rather dangerous, unless we were black belted karatekas seeking for actual street fight training.

So in real life we refrain; but in Internet it is easier and free to show others how bad they write, spell, or to signal some perceived impoliteness or rude ways and a long etcetera.

So let me insist in trying to always take the good part of any post and let aside any problematic part, instead of doing just the contrary.

Finally,
- There is a strong argument, that has been used sometimes, in that there is a kind of responsibility from the part of those who know the truth, to show very clearly that some post is misleading and could cause some sort of harm to people here who are less experienced and might believe in wrong assessments.

Although this is a valid concern, it is also a frequent source of trouble and, in my opinion, it should be used very carefully and only when the case is important enough.

The reason is the same as before; in real life, we are subject to myriads of false and half-true assessments in TV, newspapers, from politicians and mostly everybody around. If we have learnt to coexist in such a harsh environment, I am sure we can do the same here.

In fact, it should be easier in virtual than in real life.

Sorry for writing so long posts and thanks for reading!

jose luis said: 3.- Two instruments built exactly equal, will have the same sound (quality, colour, dynamics and whatever adjective we want to put here), independently of the material they are built with. This means that they cannot be distinguished if the tests are performed according to scientific standards (i.e strict double blind test (both player and listener must ignore which instrument is been played), at exactly the same position, stable acoustics of the room and a long etcs.) I know this conclusion can be hard to swallow, but a different position would (I regret to say) fall in the realm of sheer belief. As an engineer I have a positivist thinking and I cannot accept (easily) those things that refuse to be supported by reasoning. I know it is my personal approach, not necessarily valid for others, but for me it has proved to be valid in my whole life.

There are two different phenomenon at work here that often get jumbled into only 1. While it is true that it is the air column we hear, we must also remember that what drives and defines the air column is part player and part flute.

Now there is almost a sort of symbiosis of player and instrument. Of all the science that is out there, this one is the one where there probably can't be any empirical testing. No two humans are alike (except twins perhaps being as close as you can get)

Micron has shown that the tube material itself does not contribute to any significant perception of sound. Just about anyone can confirm this as tests have been done ad infinitum.

So then WHY does this myth still exist? Why are there differences? The only answer left is in the interaction of the player and the instrument. The player's ability to "drive" the air column and how it interacts with the player in it's contained instrument allows for much variation. Many players sound quite alike on whatever instrument they play, but the biggest differences are in what the player feels from this interaction. This is known as player feedback and this, more than the actual sound, is how we really choose a flute for ourselves.

So different tube thicknesses, materials, cuts, you name it will affect player feedback more than the actual sound. When we find a flute with excellent player feedback we tend to really fall in love with that particular instrument. This is why people often bring a second set of ears to play test. Sometimes what feels best is not always what sounds best. Almost everything is a compromise in this regard.

So you can debate about materials all you want, but just keep in perspective that this is only a small portion of what's happening. A flute that has excellent feedback for you and sounds good is the one to pick..

Joe B

Interesting point of view. I believe we do fall in love (in a way) with our preferred instrument, sometimes at first sight, sometimes after a while.

Strong support for the necessity of truly and strict double blind testing.

I don't know how you would do a double-blind test with a wood versus a metal flute or piccolo. I can smell-and even taste, if I'm tomgueing notes too hard- the wood, and feel the difference in heat conductivity (much higher for metal).

I think those feelings are comparable lo love-hate or preferences-phobias. Nobody knows why we were made or got to be this way.

Now if metals aren't very much of a noticeable factor, then why does someone like me have this recurring trend of not preferring certain metals? I am trying to understand this whole issue because what I have experienced myself seems quite contrary to scientific evidence in support of materials having quite little effect. I want to know where the discrepancy is!

Yes, this is exactly the point. We don't know. There must be some interaction between player and material in how the player is able to act as the driver for the air column.

The science states that material has no effect on the air column. What has not been checked is what the player affect is on different metals. That is my point.

When you isolate a variable by playing a flute with an artificial player (the driver), evidence speaks volumes that the differences in metal, etc, are hardly perceptible.

But this is an unreal situation. Players all drive flutes differently with numerous variables, Air speed stream and direction, size and force, buccal resonance, etc. Different metals obviously give the player a different feedback and that in turns changes how they approach the instrument as a driver of the air column.

I know that, me personally now, I like the feedback from heavy wall Pristine silver, Regular sterling is OK, and people prefer my sound on 10k and 18k BUT 14k is not a good sound (for me). From my perception of feedback the order of preference is 18K (can't afford it though) Pristine silver Heavy, 10K and sterling. (People also say I sound great on 18K making it my obvious choice, but like I said, I can't afford it!)

From a sound vs feedback my choices for material then would be either a .30mm thickness 10K or the heavy wall .045mm Pristine Silver. My current flute is a gold bonded over sterling model Heavy wall that I've had for years. Obviously there is a particular type of metal that "suits" me.

So it's not that metals sound different, It's that you play different metals differently. That's the variance with the player, not the tube material itself.

And yes, changing more critical dimensions of headjoint, cut and other specification also contribute to these differences, because the headjoint most of all is the point of interaction between player and flute. The head provides a great deal of feedback for the player and also helps to define certain aspects of how the waveform operates with the rest of the flute.

I think we have tried scientifically to simplify it too much. These systems are way to complex to filter down to just saying material makes no difference, science has proved it. While that maybe true in an isolated test, it ignores the reality of flute playing and human interaction.

Does that help you understand it a little better?

Joe B

I suppose this could apply also to different materials such as wood, giving a very sensible and clear explanation to the differences observed

at the end of the day, it really depends on the player, a real artist can achieve musical alchemy, making the cheapest plastic picc or student nickel plated flute sound amazing...

I think there will be still a sort of feedback. If the player knows it is a wooden flute and has (obviously) an opinion on how this instrument should sound, she/he will play it in a way to reinforce those expected sound qualities.

So, it seems that what we are looking at is the player's response to the instrument, independent of its engineering.

If the flute FEELS (to the player) warm, or cold, or comfortable, or slippery, or itchy...the player's response will be affected.

I would bet that we could give a blindfolded player a series of flutes, and their physiological response (heart rate? temperature? respiration?) would vary a tiny bit among the flutes they were playing. Surely TELLING them that they were playing a 'really expensive high end flute' would impact their response, as would telling them they're playing a cheap icky flute. For some, there might be a strong response (even blindfolded) to another type of metal, or wood, and for other players there might not be much difference.

Patrick has a great point that a good flute player can play even a marginal-quality (but properly adjusted) flute and sound good. I guess that we as players should (practice!!) get the best we can out of the flute we play.

if any of you want a CD of me I made for Jupiter using their student line, drop me a line and I will send it to you, no charge...