JB,

If mbrowne's flute is going to be taken apart and basically going through an overhaul process, then I would then putting the traditional felt pad back in kills the purpose of upgrading the playability of this flute. It's like you have just taken an engine apart you just want to put new parts in. When everything is apart, that is where you can do in terms of upgrading and putting new and better pads on. But I do agree, if his flute's tone hole is not going to be surfaced and leveled, then why do it at all? Straubinger pad need a perfectly flat and even surface to make its seal. MBrowne, if you are going to put Straubinger pad on, don't put them on if the tech won't level and resurface the tone holes. That is part of the prep process.

Don't put Muramatsu pad back in, and the "factory trained" is bullshit.

D..Hund

Don't put Muramatsu pad back in, and the "factory trained" is bullshit.

So is "Straubinger certified". The problems are there because installations are not done correctly even by "certified" techs. I've fixed tons of them by "certified" techs and I might assume from the work that I saw that they didn't even know David's name much less taken his course.

upgrading the playability of this flute.

Pads do not upgrade a flute, that is a misconception. ANY PAD WELL ADJUSTED WILL ALLOW A FLUTE TO PLAY AT IT'S POTENTIAL. Upgrading a pad does not make this happen. Making any pad seat properly is the key. The key is in the tech, not the material.

Your info on JS pads and Straubs is not entirely accurate, and in a small way misleading. But I suspect it's not worth the time to go point by point and point out the errors, since I've grown tired of doing it so often.

I like this one though:

Metal grommets are vital to the flute's overtones and also helps the flute's resonance.

Oh boy, where to start with this one... {{{head shaking}}}}

D..Hund, I'm glad your happy with your straubs. But understand that they are not the end all and be all of improving flute performance. ANY pad installed properly will be just as effective.

JB

JB

As I have previously pointed out, the quality of the installation of Straubinger pads rely heavily and emphasized on the skill of the person. Now, if you have been padding flutes with traditional felt, the preparation for Straub pads is different than slapping correct size traditional felt pads on and make sure they seal as good as possibly could. The extensive prep requires the flute tone hole to be leveled and refaced, as well as making sure the spuds are correct in size, height and shape(often need to be resoldered) to ensure the perfect surface for the pads. A major alteration that either make or ruin installation. If the tech is not careful, not only the integrity of the flute tube is at risk the pads will not seat as well as it is designed to.

If you can explain to me what Muramatsu's "factory trained" is comparable to Straubinger certified techs, then I would love to hear what the techs need to go through at Muramatsu's factory in Japan. Even a Muramatsu flute finisher said the straubinger pads just make the flute sound even more even and resonant, WHEN IT IS EXPERTLY INSTALLED. With that said, how many people complained on this forum I would bet the problems could be traced back to the tech. Any Straub padders can tell you the advantage of this pad over traditional felt. Sure a set of traditional felt can sound great when they are perfectly installed for the first time, but as the clock ticks down, the durability and the reliability of the Straubinger pad would be the obvious winner. As an active player and a tech, I don't ever want to deal with traditional pad because of its inconsistencies. When I work on my flutes, I don't want to go back to the same repair due to weather changes or the flute is at a different environment. You can't just go out and think slap a set Straubinger pads on will make any flute sound better, there are mechanical and acoustical elements to be thought through.

Silver vs. delrin grommets:
If you have enough done bench test on flutes with delrin and flutes with metal grommets, there is a clear different between the two. I used to be skeptical about the material difference but I observed a blind fold/one headjoint, fitting with 20 flutes with different grommet set up. These flutes were tested at Boston flute specialist's apartment. I even taped it and the difference is apparent even on a recorder. Flutes with metal grommets carried more overtone and much more resonant than the other with delrin. If you are a repair tech then you would have a biased opinion because delrin snap on grommets are easier to work with and cost effective if you need to replace it whereas the silver grommets are prone to bent during removal. But if you are working on a handmade flute, material should not even be a concern, but quality needs to be as high as it should be.

<Added>

I must add, if a tech had gone through David's padding course, this does not automatically guarantee the consistency of his work. The quality would only improve with time and you are trained by Landell then you should know there are still imperfections on flutes even after it leaves the factory. There several specialists here in New York that I would take my flute to if I can't fit it, and that's conservatively speaking. One in Boston I have complete trust and knowing it will come back playing at its optimal. How many tech goes through David's course a year yet only few that are know by their work? Getting a set of Straubinger pads is an upgrade, and it is quite funny break that down and have an argument. If you put a new crankshaft or bigger pistons in your engine, would that be an upgrade? If by adding something make the original equipment perform well or even exceed factory limitation, then it is an upgrade.

Did you ask him why?

Fess up Suzie! I think you just really liked that guy at the Brannen booth. lol! JK! I just really liked the booth because of their flutes! (I still love mine though.)

I have to add that with my own experience that I took my flute in for a service to a company and it came back worst. They said they re-leveled a couple of Straubinger pads on my flute? I wanted to tell them to go back and take the course. Being annoyed with my flute as I knew it wasn't playing right, I was going to take it into Joe since I trust him completely. He is one of the best in his field. But, I ended up taking it in to Mr. Landell (sorry Joe) because there was a wait with Joe and I missed playing on my main flute. Landell did a superb job! Sure, it cost me $600 for my pads to be shimmed and leveled, but it was worth every penny! From now on, I will only be taking it to him or Joe. So yes, there are a lot of techs out there that are Straubinger certified but not all do a good job.
So far my pads are about four years old and all in great shape. Now I just hope they stay seated well for another couple of years! I may try JS Gold pads next time as Landell seems to think they are just as good. Hey, as long as it plays right, that is what really matters.

D..hund

Now, if you have been padding flutes with traditional felt, the preparation for Straub pads is different than slapping correct size traditional felt pads on and make sure they seal as good as possibly could.

Are you aware that many people today use this preparation for felt pads as well???? It's not the pad, it's the process. And you don't needs David's course to be aware of the techniques.

Even a Muramatsu flute finisher said the straubinger pads just make the flute sound even more even and resonant, WHEN IT IS EXPERTLY INSTALLED.

This means nothing. I can pull up more "experts" that say the exact opposite. Lining up people on any side of an argument proves nothing except increase the world's usage of Toilet paper.

Any Straub padders can tell you the advantage of this pad over traditional felt.

Any any of us who install many other types of pads and have fixed straub jobs ad nausea will confirm that there is no advantage. I have seen felt pads properly installed that have greatly outlived and performed as well as Straubs. The key is that whatever you install is INSTALLED PROPERLY. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

Silver vs. delrin grommets: If you have enough done bench test on flutes with delrin and flutes with metal grommets, there is a clear different between the two.

Well that comment is directly contrary to all the evidence out there, acoustical and otherwise. {sarcasm}That must be why Brannens are so unpopular for their sound now-a-days, the non metal grommets...Yah, that's it. {/sarcasm}

Flutes with metal grommets carried more overtone and much more resonant than the other with delrin.

{head shaking again} According to what research and based on what acoustical phenomenon? You are just baiting me now.

If you put a new crankshaft or bigger pistons in your engine, would that be an upgrade? If by adding something make the original equipment perform well or even exceed factory limitation, then it is an upgrade.

You are not doing any of that however. You are not metaphorically adding a new crankshaft or bigger pistons. Original equipment will make the flute perform to its design potential. NO pad will make a flute exceed factory limitations, hence the idea that this is an upgrade is silly. They just cost more.

It's more like you got your same car painted with a new color.

So do you work for David? This is all marketing hype that bears no resemblance to reality.

For reference an upgrade would be a student model flute with a pro handmade cut headjoint put on it. That means you've change the design element by a function to increase a particular variable. Pad design variable requirements function is simply to seal as best as possible with minimal finger pressure. (flute performance related to pads is primarily seating and venting is a secondary but cooperating tolerance). This can optimally be accomplished with ANY type pad and you are not changing the function. So this is not an upgrade. It's just trying chocolate today instead of vanilla. But the vanilla costs more.

Joe B

JB,

No, I do not work for David.

There is nothing misleading in what I have posted as you have accused.

J.S pad problem that I have mentioned was from an individual who had to overhaul Galway's flute. I will not name due to internet and privacy issues.

What I don't understand is why you insist on splitting a prep/pad. Without one or the other the whole job is !***! canned. The only element can contested is the quality of the tech which we have already established that.

The padding course is not only just how to pad, it is to understand the synthetic properties as well as the acoustical and mechanical difference that is has on the flute during/after set up between felt pad and synthetic pads. Granted the fundamental of padding is similar and you don't need David's class but to say his pads are just any other pad then you really discount your knowledge needed to pad and the advantage offered from the pad.

To say you get nausea and headaches from Straubinger pads is simply a contradiction. You think these pads are easy to install? The degree of patience that is devoted ultimately reflects how the flute plays. Felt pads present just as much headache and problems at a more frequent interval, let's not forget, the weather is changing due to global warming, it is hotter than ever and rising. That means the content in these pads are even more prone to the invasion of elements change. What worse, is to deal with these problems as a player during practice/performance. You must realize players don't care nor want the cons and the what techs care is how long they can keep the pros and keep the cons from coming back. Traditional pad simply falls short of that elusive standard. Proper installation is a prerequiste we have already established that, I am talking about the pad, not single, but a set and how the finished work would free up the resonance of the tube. I don't know, perhaps because you are dealing with problem flutes and repairs so much you forgot or don't know what a good flute feel like? The difference is night and day. The vibration is just different with hard surfaced pads vs.felt pads.

Grommets:
As far as I know Brannen are still using metal grommets, so if everything is relatively the same during the production of the flute then we need to look at other factors (perhaps headjoint/embrochure cut, seal or the cork placement to begin with.)

I must admit that I stand on a weak ground on grommet material research, but the experiementation that was done was enough to convince me the difference between silver vs. plastic grommets. It is quite logical if you think about it. If a tone hole is sealed completely by plastic or metal, the amount of vibration through soft material would be absorb whereas metal deflect the sound. Imagine, if we have a pad surface made out of metal, and the contact surface and tone hole relation is so precise that when it closes it is like it's part of the tube. What better than a something works from an integrated action and strength?

If you have a leak on the upper stack A/Bb, you can kiss the rest of the range goodbye. A leak on the flute accounts for over 95% of its playability. If the installation is top notch, then the sooner a pad would allow a leak the worse the pad is.

Putting a set of new pads on a flute is not comparable to a car getting a paint job. Does cutting the embrouchure hole an exterior modification on a car? Engine/piston analogy works perfectly fine here I don't know why you just don't see the relation. If you have generic spark plugs and platinum tips, platinum would be an upgrade provided it is compatible with that particular car. If the function changes because you change a particular part, then it could be called as modification. Your analogy of chocolate/vanilla vs. my ice cream and yogurt. The only element constant is our mouth, so which taste better?

Twice you have said it and I will tell you this once, that this is certainly not marketing hype and I have no intention of marketing for any particular design, but up to this point I had played so many that I don't care what make anymore I just play first and see how they sound. I arrive at this conclusion based on the accumulation of this method. Perhaps I am lucky with the consistent encounters with good flutes that happen to have his pads, When I do play one with felt pads the difference is immediately felt. Pads are certainly not created equal, although their function is to be the same, but now we have the luxury of durability and enhancement from these pads.

D..hund, just out of curiosity, by any chance do you have any idea with whom you are debating with? You aren't just debating with an average run of the mill tech here! Just ask Landell.

No I don't but I am speaking from performance experience so am I that off?

There is nothing misleading in what I have posted as you have accused. J.S pad problem that I have mentioned was from an individual who had to overhaul Galway's flute. I will not name due to internet and privacy issues.

That was the very first generation of JS pad. That pad has undergone a few design changes based on the same idea. These include a change in the skin infusion method to prevent this scenario, and yet another of an inner diameter collar to effect a better seal from the retainer. Making his screwless magnetic retainer system work even better. Jim is now onto the digital pad yet another generation of his pad. Your information is well out of date...hence the "a bit misleading" comment.

What I don't understand is why you insist on splitting a prep/pad. Without one or the other the whole job is !***! canned.

Prep IS everything. The pad is less important. It only needs to conform to specific mechanical tolerances.

The padding course is not only just how to pad, it is to understand the synthetic properties as well as the acoustical and mechanical difference that is has on the flute during/after set up between felt pad and synthetic pads. Granted the fundamental of padding is similar and you don't need David's class but to say his pads are just any other pad then you really discount your knowledge needed to pad and the advantage offered from the pad.

And what are the mechanical and acoustical differences? Or should I give a dissertation on this(...again...) Nonsense...You simply cannot quantify any EFFECTIVE resultant difference. Different materials yes, Function is exactly the same. Standard deviation from working mechanical differences is much smaller on straubs than compared to felt. That is why the installation procedure needs to have so many mechnical tolerances controlled and working cooperatively. That also means that only one of them need to exceed a cooperative tolerance to cross the threshold of failure. (which resides in a small margin). Felt has a much greater range.

If you equate an Artist with padding technique, the difference is this. With Straubs, you have one color to paint with -Yellows. With felt, because there is such a range of material out there you have a full color pallete to work with. With Straubs you MUST maintain the flute within a very small range of cooperative tolerances. Exceed one and you have a failure of any particular degree related to that particular tolerance breach.

Felt has a much more forgiving range and you can selectively choose the level of tolerance needed for any particular flute.

You don't have that option with straubs. You have to make it conform to those tolerances.

JS pads took a similar idea and improved upon the straub concept. In doing so Jim identified the mechanical cause of tolerance failure breach and designed accordingly to loosen that tolerance and provide the same functionality in a wider operating mechanical tolerance.

What we techs need and what I teach to flute techs is understanding the components of all these types of pads, know which mechanical tolerance affect aspects of the whole system and then be able to deal with anything to do a consistent, excellent padding job REGARDLESS of the type of pad used.

In Fact, I padded a flute with almost every type of pad and system known to mankind and let it fool everyone who tried to figure out what was in it. The article is still posted on my old website:

http://www.langemusic.com/Articles/frankenflute.htm

And David was among the participants who was fooled by this flute at that National Convention. He congratulated me a shook my hand in disbelief after commenting that it was one of the best padding jobs he had ever seen. (Before he looked at what was in there)

It's not about the pad, it's about knowing what you are working with and using the right tools and techniques for any particular job.

Joe B

The first generation of j.s pads were considered to be better than his second generation design. I just spent portion of my day in Acton with a Boston shop finisher that they would use the first generation over his newly design ones, but still straubinger pads over j.s pad because the straub pad is just so flat.

Prep and pad makes the flute play, why is pad any less important than the prep? That's simply is just lack of follow through.

The only none sense is to dismiss the fact flute is mechanical and acoustically altered which I have already explained in my previous post. Yes I would like to hear your dissertation on that.

Mechancial difference:
tone hole refaced/leveled, eliminating the uneveness done at the factory.

Acoustical difference:
rigid and flat pad seats better on evened out surface, better seal and deflection of sound.

Let's not forget the discussion of silver vs. delrin grommets.

If one variable is out of bound then we have failure, then it is the question of how much room for error will the tech allow it to happen.

Felt has a great range in terms of what way? Because it is flexible? How is that a good things when you need consistency in sealing tone holes when you close flute keys down so many times in just one practice session? It should not be allow to have that much room to flex. If it flexes, does the pad next to it flex the same way?

The artist/padding technique analogy:
Is this related to what I wrote? What I meant is artists don't want the inconsistencis of felt pads, nor the techs. For techs, it doesn't matter what material used as long as it will seal and stay seal.

Will felt seal? Yes. Will felt stay sealed? If yes then how long over its competitor pads, if no why?

Will Straub pad seal? If yes, how long if no, why?

If you mentioned the technique which you have applied with felt pads on the frankenflute gained high feedbacks, then what result would you have if you apply the same top notch installation with Straub pads?

I suppose we keep the variable constant (pad) and just focus on the quality of the installation.

D...Hund,

Where do I start??? I think It's a waste of time trying to explain, however....let me pick a place to start and try to make some sense of this for you simply by giving you some things to consider...

Before making any comparisons about JS vs Straubs, why don't you tell me the main differences in the pads? If you can explain to me the difference in the 3 main components of each pad (the 4th is a bonus in the JS pad) then maybe, MAYBE we can discuss this.

Prep and pad makes the flute play, why is pad any less important than the prep?

Prep allows the pad to do what it does, that is, it's primary function is to seat to particular necessary standards. The amount and type of prep and technique allows the pad to accomplish it's primary task. What the pad is in that context does not matter.

Mechancial difference: tone hole refaced/leveled, eliminating the uneveness done at the factory.

Consider this: Nothing is this world is perfectly flat, round, level, or "name your standard". There are only degrees of these. Mechanically speaking, you need to match mechanical tolerances to an area of cooperative tolerances for things to work together. Something with a tighter range of tolerance requires that standard as the minimum. That is where technique comes in and the level of understanding of that principle determines any tech's ability to know what they are talking about. Mismatching required tolerance on cooperative parts is were failure occurs. Knowing what all the tolerances are and having the ability to manipulate them effectively is the other half of the equation.

Acoustical difference: rigid and flat pad seats better on evened out surface, better seal and deflection of sound.

You have outlined, 3 distinct properties. The first two do not hold up, and the third has no relevance. Radiation of sound by tonehole lattice dissertations contradict the third part of your theory. (Unless you are trying to tell me that flute wave propagation is highly directional..and if you are by that last statement, then the reasoning is based on some serious delusions of physical reality)

Let's not forget the discussion of silver vs. delrin grommets.

Surface material container of standing wave principles deny this delusion. There is simply not enough material exposed to the standing wave container medium to alter the standing wave's relative partial strength recipe. It is an impossibility of physics on so many levels that to consider this as a serious statement is ridiculous.

If one variable is out of bound then we have failure, then it is the question of how much room for error will the tech allow it to happen.

Obviously, a pad requiring such a small margin of operative, and co-operational tolerances is prone to a higher failure rate given the properties of the total system employed. That is the statistical reality

Felt has a great range in terms of what way? Because it is flexible? How is that a good things when you need consistency in sealing tone holes when you close flute keys down so many times in just one practice session? It should not be allow to have that much room to flex. If it flexes, does the pad next to it flex the same way?

Finally a good question! Are you prepared to discuss compression and recovery ability? In the terms I have given you, what is the sufficient amount of flexibility required (i.e. minimum tolerance) and what materials can be made to effectively operate in that range? Stability is measured in terms of the standard deviation of the minimum required tolerance. So tell me...just how do the straub, JS, (pick any generation), felt (again pick any type used as pad material) relate to this mechnical cooperative tolerance?

Unfortunately if you even attempt to answer this question at all correctly you MUST disavow another statement you made earlier since it directly contradicts any logical ramifications of what's actually happening. I would be interested in listening as you attempt to reconcile the two opposing logical conclusions. One of your premises is obviously false.

And finally to the final realization of this phenomenon.

Will felt seal? Yes. Will felt stay sealed? If yes then how long over its competitor pads, if no why? Will Straub pad seal? If yes, how long if no, why? If you mentioned the technique which you have applied with felt pads on the frankenflute gained high feedbacks, then what result would you have if you apply the same top notch installation with Straub pads?

If you can identify your presumptive error and recognize it, you will have your answer.

FWIW, as I have said many times over, anyone who is satisfied with straubs or any pad of choice is their own business. I have to fix, repair and or install any and all of them. What gets me all bent out of shape is the nonsensical claim of superiority of one type over another. Trading one set of variables for another is not a claim of superiority. It is merely exchanging one set of preferences for another. Given what's out there, there is no possible claim to superiority, especially when talking about something like a difference in pad material. Making a pad design given is functionality limitations the end all and be all of some mystical upgrade to better performance is really, and I mean REALLY, stretching sense to the point of psychotic insanity.

Joe B

Why bother explain the difference when all you have said of my posts so far is psychotic or nonsense. YOU WIN.

I don't know what you do with your flutes but given 3 to 6 months when they leaves your bench, I would love to test them see how they hold up against one with Straub pad or J.S pad in it. I have discussed with many techs in NYC and Boston area and based from my own experience with felt and Straubinger, I will take Straubinger over felt any day and I swear by the quality it enhances on my own flute.

I have had felt pads on my backup and I can't count how many times it needed adjustment, more flexible to work with because it is more flexible that it will cause leaks on flute and my wallet to fix?)

Unless there comes a better pad that will last longer than before, or never needs to be replaced again, the better. I never had any luck with felt and frankly I will not risk my practice sessions let alone my performances with felt. I just don't give a damn how well you pad it, it is problematic doesn't matter how you look at it.

Those two questions at the end were intended for you just answer them will ya?

based from my own experience with felt and Straubinger, I will take Straubinger over felt any day and I swear by the quality it enhances on my own flute.........I have had felt pads on my backup and I can't count how many times it needed adjustment,

D...Hund,

You see, this is my only point. This is YOUR experience and to take that and transfer this into some claim of superiority for everyone to believe is just not a proper chain of reasoning. You've had problems with felts pads and great luck with straubs. There could be many reasons as to why that is the case. It is not the place here to go into all of those reasons.

There are many people out there that have gone from felt to straubs, felt to JS, Straubs to JS, JS back to straubs, and in the most unbelievable cases as fas as your concerned, straubs or JS back to felt.

So what does it all prove? All it proves it that some people prefer one type over another and there are many more reasons for that than you are even considering. As such is the case, I can't take you claims seriously. It's not about winning or losing either. People tend to get excited over something they've found works for them. Just don't generalize that for everyone. All of these pads can be made to function well in most cases. You must remember that you have apples, and oranges, and bananas here. None is superior to the other...only different.

You can get stable life out of felt pads. 30 years is certainly within the range of an ordinary felt pad. You can't make that claim with straubs or JS pads because they simply haven't been around that long. Again, depending on many factors, I've fixed straub jobs that came to me for repair that lasted only 6 months or even less before the usual problems started to surface.

Don't take it personally, since it is not meant to be that at all. Now if you want to still discuss point by point various aspects of padding systems, pads, and why things are the way they are, I'm here. Pick your favorite variable. If you want me to discuss my methods, that's fine too, there are no "secrets" here. Maybe that approach will help you to realize further why the claims you've been supporting cannot be true. It sounds to me that you have heard a biased side of the coin in your investigations about straubs. If you are willing to go to these lengths to understand this, you should have no problem asking me pointed questions and hearing the other side of the coin. Believe me, you'll get a straight answer. I could care less about telling you what you want to hear. I will tell you honestly the differences between the two without my opinion. The variable will be whether or not you want to believe the reality and further form your own opinion. Only this time maybe it will be based on concrete empirical reality rather that merely various tech's opinions.

Those two questions at the end were intended for you just answer them will ya?

I already did. There is no difference. And it had been proven that no-one can tell the difference, IF and WHEN, any pad is correctly installed on a flute.

Joe B

Suzie,

I am not sure what you deal is but I see instead of fully understood the point and JB and I. You went as far as accuse that I pushed my views onto others with the Straubinger pads and calling this pompous. I made it clear there was no such intention.

When you are unable to provide detailed information as JB had, don't post irrelevant statements that clearly reflected none with what you have posted. Simply just not the case. I had experiences with felt, straub and j.s pads and I despite the argument with JB, enjoyed his views based on his works.