Hi, forum friends,

I need some help and I only have time until Monday 17 to solve my problem:

We decided I will play the Bach 1034 Adagio in duet for my audition on December 15. We prepared the part for the second flute based on the Cello part from the original score, making the necessary (or convenient) changes to fit the flute range and the piece style.

But yesterday I had for the first time the opportunity to play a few moments on a bass flute and now I think this IS the instrument I want for the second flute.

But the bass flute (called "flute in G" here), is a transposing instrument and we have difficulties to play it reading from the C flute score. For example, to play a "A", one must finger a "D" and so on.

A solution I imagined is to make a new score, printing the notes the player must finger to make the bass flute sing the notes that are correct for the harmony (that is, the same notes of a C flute playing the original score, but and octave (I guess) lower).

I can do transpositions easily with my Notation SW, but I am not sure into what I should transpose and if I may encounter harmony problems doing a direct transposition.

The original piece is in E minor.

Can you help, please? I need to have the new score ready for next Monday...

Many thanks.

I think you have answered your own question - you have discovered that to sound A you must finger a D. You should only need to enter the original in you notation program & transpose up 5 semi-tones & it will all happen - maybe transposing bits down an octave where possible might be useful.

Pity you only have an alto in G & not a real bass in C

This is probably a dumb question, but are you sure you are talking about playing a bass flute? I believe that a bass flute is a non-transposing instrument that is fingered the same as a standard flute but plays one octave lower. Since you are talking about a transposing flute in the key of G, that sounds like an alto flute to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Regardless, I wish I could help you with transposition. I'm hoping that you get some good replies about that subject because I don't fully understand how to transpose either.

The transposition should be into A minor then.

Thank you.

I am not sure if it is a bass or an Alto.

I was told it is a bass, with curved headjoint. But no doubt it is transposing, so it should be an Alto according to your comments.

Here they do not call them Alto or Bass so much as "Flute in G". I believe it's a question of names.

I do not have access to the instrument but during the lessons, so I cannot check anything else for the moment.

I will try first a transposition into A minor and check whether the harmony sounds OK to my ears. If not I will shift 5 semitones, but there is not such explicit transposing interval in Finale, just thirds, fourths, fifths and so on, with options "diatonically" or "chromatically" and "up" or "down"

I suppose I should select "fourth", "down" and "chromatically". Am I right?

I will be playing the first flute (in C) and be accompanied by the Alto (it everything is solved in time). Otherwise there will be two C flutes, an arrangement that also sounds pretty good.

OK, thanks. What is the lowest note of the Alto flute?

The lowest note on the alto flute is G. The fingering is the same as low C on a standard C flute.

Alieannie is absolutly correct, alto flutes can have either a straight or curved headjoint. The straight headjoint makes for a pretty long reach for the right hand for some people.

Jose, Sorry to be slow to respond.
"I suppose I should select "fourth", "down" and "chromatically". Am I right?"
NO.

In your notation software, the key of your Alto Flute in G part should have no accidentals in the key signature of a minor. Although there may be a fair number of accidentals -such as G#s in the music because Bach will generally wander through keys for the effect.

The first few notes (from the Bass part of the 1034 Mvt.1 Adagio ma non Tanto) should begin on the treble clef 2nd space a, and then ascend the a min scale but will soon add some accidentals:
abcdef#g#e/abcadefd/edcadcba/....etc.

Write the Alto in G part in the treble staff transposed down a P5 or up P4 and then consider the same written range as the Concert C flute (the lowest note is middle C below the treble staff.)

You will need to make some adjustments sometimes in the octaves for effect and to keep the Alto in the low range but not below the instruments readable range.

Hope this adds to all the great help of the others.

also the Bass flute is essentially 2X the length of the concert C flute.

The Alto (in G) is about 1.5 times the same length.

The piccolo is basically 1/2 the length of the C flute. (It pays the octave above)

This is not including the extension of the b foot. This length is found measuring the bore length from the plug to either the end of the C foot joint or about the center of the B key on a B foot joint flute.....and not measured from the outside of the crown to the end of the foot joint.

silly question but couldn't you just change it to alto clef?, then you play it from the same notes but with the differant clef, if not use a notation software to traspose it

If the Alto Flute part were in alto clef, this would put the lowest note of the instrument (Mid C) on the middle line of the staff.

I believe that most Alto Flute players read the notes as a Concert C flute player would. As an example, They see an A on the 2nd space treble staff, finger an A T12 D# and it sounds the low E (a P4 lower).

The problem with one of those "transposition tricks" (If I may use that term) is that the part that he's transposing is the Cello/viola da gamba part from the bass staff and not treble clef. (Left hand of the Cembalo part). So not only is the transposing being done from e minor to the key of a minor but for the Alto flute to read the music easily, it has to go into the treble staff. (Up two octaves AND a P4 from the original.)


The confusing thing is that the written note for the Alto flute and the sounding note terminology can get confused.
Simple: The first note in this piece for the Alto flute should sound the pitch >e< (The tonic of the key of the piece.)
For this note to sound correct on the Alto flute it must be written as the note >a< This is the tonic note of the Alto flute in G for this piece. THEN that written note >a< in the alto flute part will sound a P4th lower than written (in this case an e).

Well, thank you very much for your intense efforts to explain it to me. I wish I had more music theory formation, mine is scarce but for the moment I must do with what I have.

For example I do not understand this naming: "finger an A T12 D#" . Also "P4" is not completely clear for me. What does "P" stand for?

As I learn from Bilbo post, it is not easy (or perhaps not even possible) to do a fully automatic transposition, which was my intention. If I have to correct the result of a transposition to A minor and add accidentals here and there, it will be slow and much prone to errors because of my inexperience.

I think the issue is much complicated than I supposed. Most probably I will not have it ready for tomorrow. Not a catastrophe, just a little frustrating but I will survive to it.

One additional problem is that I cannot test my transpositions by ear because I do not have access to the Alto flute until I get to the lesson.

Who had the idea of inventing this transposing instruments? What is their advantage, if any?

<Added>

I want to clarify that the second flute part is already in the trebble staff (G in second line) as I changed it from the cello part, originally in bass clef (F in fourth line). Also I made the suitable octave changes to keep the contrapunctus more or less as the original intention and within the C flute range.

"Wow, Bilbo, you explained that better than I ever could."


I was only trying to prove Adolphus Hailstork was mistaken when he tried to give me an F grade in one of his very first freshman Theory classes....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolphus_Hailstork

So, if it was in fact correct, my muddled mind functioned on sheer luck and should be checked over by other competent thinkers. This stuff tends to confuse us flute people easily..... like why does the recorder family transpose the fingerings while the different flutes transpose the notes?

"
...For example I do not understand this naming: "finger an A T12 D#" . Also "P4" is not completely clear for me. What does "P" stand for?"

This means that the fingering for A natural= Thumb, 1st finger and second finger of the left hand and then the D#/Eb key (Right hand Pinkey).

P4 = perfect fourth.

"I want to clarify that the second flute part is already in the trebble staff (G in second line) as I changed it from the cello part, originally in bass clef (F in fourth line). Also I made the suitable octave changes to keep the contrapunctus more or less as the original intention and within the C flute range."

Sounds good.

which program are you using for notation?


<Added>

If you are doing this in Finale, it can be done by writing out your part before transposing and then changing the transposition (Through the Staff tool).

Yes, this is it. I transposed it with the staff tool into A minor and it seems to work, with a few exceptions I have to check with teacher tomorrow.

More feedback on this project tomorrow after lessons...

I am starting to record with Audacity and a cheap Yamaha YM 70S dynamic mike. See what I get. I will try to record the second flute "live" in C and also with the Alto, if the part I made is readable.

Thank you all for you invaluable help.