Is it possible to play in a professional orchestra without a college degree??

why not, as long as you pass the audition..

I had the along the same lines question and James Galway responded reminding me that he does not have a college degree.

yes, but it's very very unusual for anyone to do it without proper (the very highest level) flute instruction. For example IF a very talented beginner were to practice very hard and take lessons from someone like Sir James Galway for @ ten years, they might succeed in winning an orchestra audition without going to any college, university or conservatory.

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BTW Trevor Wye didn't earn any college degree from what I understand either.

Oh and by the way, as an example I did get into a professional band and Orchestra when I lived in NY and I never went to college for it. Granted, the Orchestra was only the Orchard park symphony and not the Buffalo Philharmonic, but I still got into a small one.

Well I did find this amazing teacher that is principle in the phoenix orchestra and piccolo in the Tucson symphony and she is the bomb!!!lol... i don't think its necessarily true that i would have to train with james galway to be super great...cause even though james galway has sold millions of records there are people out there that can play just as well as him but never got lucky enough to get a record deal or the exposure.

I think Galway is more than lucky, besides being a great player, he is a good showman, knows how to program for his audience and what to record, etc...he also practices a great deal and is very disciplined..

I believe that Galway also spent two years at the Paris Conservatory.
He has the quality of training like a good conservatory would provide and as Patrick suggested, discipline. He's mentioned getting up and practicing for an hour at 7AM before breakfast but I've heard that he has practiced all night if he was in the mood.

I heard from my teachers that Sir Galway went to Royal College of Music for 3 years, Guildhall of Trinity College for 1 year, and Paris Conservatory for 1 year, who says he didn't go to a college? Also, Trevor Wye taught in RCM manchester for 30-40 years, do you think the British will let him teach if he didn't earn any degree?

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also, you don't just practise practise and practise to become master, you need vast music information and formal training.....my teachers are principals and assistance principal, they hold many many many degree, 2 bachalors, 2 education, 1 master etc...

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even my teacher who plays as assistant principal in pro-orch holds master of music degree!

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of course you also have to pass auditions beating hundreds of good flutists from all over the world trying to fight for only 1 or sometimes lucky 2 positions...beating those people with correct interpretations, super-fast lightning fingers, beautiful changeable tones, super intonation (some of them even have perfect pitch and good relative pitch trainings), accomplished techniques(even modern tecniques), and the amazing superfast British sightread skills at presto with 6#(I just done a sightreading last time in a youth orchestra)... the chance of getting in is very very very slim!!! unless you work your 'end' off like those guys had no life but flute....sigh...

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some think learning music is fun? some think study music in conservatory or in university is all about playing your flute? my teachers told me, in university or conservatory you spend half of the time reading and memorizing all the music related stuff, you have to know keyboard too, the knowledge is not just flute, all things, like about piano, opera and everything. most of them are boring to death...

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my teachers told me too many things...every single phrase they played has a vast knowledge of music behind it, in college the teacher worked one phrase per week, many pieces took 6 months or 1 year to analyze...it makes us playing our piece like amateur playing toys only.

I notice your reply is growing, Pyrioni, and the additions are interesting. I would say that all of us that are not in a professional orchestra should not be too discouraged about the fact. You need to enjoy the process of learning; why else continue? Music can be very beautiful, rewarding, and fun, even if there are other players that can achieve more "perfection" than you.

The conclusion is: work hard to improve, but appreciate and enjoy what you are able to do too.

If you have the talent and love music enough to want to be in a professional orchestra, would there really be any reason for not getting a music degree?

Well, I assume that money can be an issue in some places. But then you probably would not afford a top flute teacher either.

Are there usually age limits for studying music? I have not seen such restrictions in Sweden, but I guess this would stop some people.

As for studying not beeing fun, I really hope that is not the case. A good university should have good teachers, and be able to show how all the theory and keyboard classes apply to your flute playing. Besides, if you end up losing the orchestra auditions later, you would have so many more options for still keeping music as a profession.

University education is structured to help people learn much about an area, so even if you are able to learn similar skills somewhere else, the university is usually a very efficient way to learn what you need. You also meet skilled fellow students and can see what the competition is like, and maybe you make that connection you need to get into the orchestra you later will join.

oh, I remember Trevor Wye told us he really didn't go to a conservatory or university in a masterclass when we asked him what degree he was holding. my bad, poor memory.....

Marie, You said about age not a matter, sure it's not a problem for learning music....but for high standard professional orchestral music life, age is everything.... otherwise, why top schools of music have age limits? I forgot my teacher once told me Paris Conservatory only accept applicant younger than 19 or 21.

I am 14 now and I have not many years left to acquire all the things I need, I start to panic. as my goal is set for professional orchestra myself. I have 2 teachers, one is ex-principal and one is a ex-assistant principal flutist of professional orchestras, I am planning to learn from another top principal flutist from a top orchestra soon.

There are many many many younger guys in my country are very very good already and much much younger than me..9-12, I am consider old here and my skills are still poor.

Trevor Wye said he started near 16, and he said he said it was very hard for him- to started flute old. I heard from Pahud and Mr.Wye with my own ears during masterclasses, they both admit age slowed them down compared with students below 17 years now.

Last year, Trevor Wye also wrote the following in Larry Krantz's list forum:

"I wrote some Advanced Technical Exercises (Practise Book Six, page 12) while on holiday, and on my return, tried them out on victims of different ages as under:

Two 15/16 year olds, Then six 18 year old first year students at the Royal Northern College of Music, Manchester, Four Post -Graduate students aged between 23 -26.

After six months daily practise, the youngest were playing these exercises at about twice the speed of the 26 year olds.
Over the next 20 years, this pattern repeated itself over and over. Of course, there were some kids who were slower and some post grads who were faster, but as a general rule, it seems that you need to establish a technique when young, in fact before 'maturity' at the age of 16 or so, before the body begins the aging process. It's harder to acquire a good foundation after that. Not impossible. Harder. Athletics coaches know it well. My doctor friend told me, that ageing begins very slowly at about 17.

So, the message reads, 'It's better to practise today than leave it until tomorrow'

Sorry for the sermon, but I started playing at the age of almost 16, so I know! I can't write more. I need to do my scales.

Trevor Wye"

'It's better to practise today than leave it until tomorrow'

So true!

Don't give up, Pyrioni. You never know what's possible unless you try. (And that is usually more then we think!)

Sorry for beeing unclear. Age does matter, of course. I was just thinking that there should not be unnecessary restictions for entering a university education in music. If there is one rare person that is older than a age limit, and for some reason would manage to reach a high level, he or she should be allowed to try. I am sure there are auditions and other ways of evaluating potential students.

Also, the main question was about playing in a professional orchestra without a degree. My point is that if you are to old to take a degree, you are likley too old to reach the level needed for the orchestra too.

But maybe there are other reasons for not getting a degree (but still wanting to play in a professional orchestra)?

<<My point is that if you are too old to take a degree, you are likley too old to reach the level needed for the orchestra>>

very good point!