Two extended technique pitch questions:

What's the best and the easiest way to play a quarter tone sharper than the second E above middle C (the second E on the flute, that is)?

What's the best and the easiest way to gliss (portamento) down from the second C (an octave above middle C) to the first A (the first A above middle C)?

Thanks.

some of the replies will depend upon if you have open holed flute or not.
For example it may be easiest to play a quarter tone sharper than the E by fingering the F and playing a quarter tone flat.

Usually I've done a gliss. by playing as many notes between the two principals as possible. How I do it depends upon how exposed the flute is in the music. ~ for example part of a flute section in an ensemble or a flute alone solo.

For example it may be easiest to play a quarter tone sharper than the E by fingering the F and playing a quarter tone flat.

I'm assuming by "play a quarter tone sharper" you mean bend the pitch. What about using a quarter-tone fingering?

Usually I've done a gliss. by playing as many notes between the two principals as possible. How I do it depends upon how exposed the flute is in the music. ~ for example part of a flute section in an ensemble or a flute alone solo.

It's for a single flute accompanied by guitar. The guitar is playing a true glissando here, whereas the flute is intended to play a portamento, or at least fake a portamento.

"I'm assuming by "play a quarter tone sharper" you mean bend the pitch. What about using a quarter-tone fingering? "

You asked for the easiest way to play a 1/4 tone sharper than E.
I gave you the way I'd play a single even of a 1/4 tone flatter than F. I would not use the term "bending of the pitch" for this as I'm simply playing the fingering flat and this (hopefully) not being caught in the act of bending anything.
Memorizing 1/4 tone fingerings aren't especially easier AFAI am concerned.

One primary concern with both of your questions would be whether or not you have an instrument with open-holed keys. This may change the technique as I'm sure that you already know. So, I'd consider including this information in any initial question. I would also include an accurate description of the effect desired as writing it in your question: ".....way to gliss (portamento) down" is to my way of deciphering, an indication of either or both.


I'm not a Wikipedia fan but a note from a particularly poor Wiki article on Glissando:

"A glissando (plural: glissandi, abbreviated gliss.) is a glide from one pitch to another."

Neither the flute, piano or guitar are well suited for such as what I'd consider larger (in this case a minor third) interval "Glides" very well. The guitar for example has frets.

"Prescriptive attempts[1] to distinguish the glissando from the portamento by limiting the former to the filling in of discrete intermediate pitches on instruments like the piano, harp and fretted strings have run up against established usage[2] of instruments like the trombone and timpani. The latter could thus be thought of as capable of either 'glissando' or 'portamento', depending on whether the drum was rolled or not. The clarinet gesture that opens Rhapsody in Blue could likewise be thought of either way, being originally for piano, but is in practice played as a portamento and described [1] as a glissando. In cases where the destination and goal pitches are reduced to starting and stopping points as in James Tenney's Cellogram, or points of inflection, as in the sirens of Varèse's Hyperprism, the term portamento (conjuring a decorative effect) seems hardly adequate for what is a sonorous object in its own right and these are called glissando."

This:

"Prescriptive attempts[1] to distinguish the glissando from the portamento by limiting the former to the filling in of discrete intermediate pitches on instruments like the piano, harp and fretted strings have run up against established usage[2] of instruments like the trombone and timpani.

seems to me a pretty pompous way of putting it. What it amounts to is simply that if you write "glis." in a piano part, you'll get a true glissando, and if you write "glis." in a violin part you'll get a portamento instead, which has to do with the mechanics of the instruments. (The phrase "prescriptive attempts" is anti-intellectual bovine manure.) I'm not sure what you'll get if you write "glis." in a flute part, but I'm wondering how difficult it is to get on the flute the sort of portamento effect Artie Shaw gets on the clarinet. I assume he accomplishes his portamento effect by bending pitches up and down with his embouchure as he fingers a segment of a chromatic scale.

I gave you the way I'd play a single even of a 1/4 tone flatter than F.

Not especially clearly: you didn't say how.

I would not use the term "bending of the pitch" for this as I'm simply playing the fingering flat and this (hopefully) not being caught in the act of bending anything.

If you're fingering an E and playing a quarter tone sharper than an E, then you're bending the pitch.

Memorizing 1/4 tone fingerings aren't especially easier AFAI am concerned.

Maybe quarter-tone fingerings are more suitable for quarter-tone scales than for isolated quarter-tones.

One primary concern with both of your questions would be whether or not you have an instrument with open-holed keys.

I, myself, have no flute at all and never plan to acquire one. I don't play the flute. I have two things in mind, most immediately a particular flautist (and I keep forgetting to ask her what kind of flute she has), less immediately whoever else may come along and play my piece. In the latter case there's no way of knowing.

"seems to me a pretty pompous way of putting it."

My point is that I agree with you. Not only Pompous BS but not clearly understood in the terminology. Like a college prof trying to display how intelligent they are with the employment of recremental erudition to the point of sublime dissipation.

"but I'm wondering how difficult it is to get on the flute the sort of portamento effect Artie Shaw gets on the clarinet. I assume he accomplishes his portamento effect by bending pitches up and down with his embouchure as he fingers a segment of a chromatic scale.
"
There may be more capability with a clarinet to "bend pitches" with embouchure/breath and the size of the finger holes. I've seen it done with good clarinetists and am glad that it's generally not required to do such things on flute

"Not especially clearly: you didn't say how."
By lipping the pitch down. Angling the airstream more down into the emb. hole/rolling back/lowering the support and such. I consider the term "bending the pitch" a misnomer because to me it represents more of the act if sliding up or down and the sound that results as one is doing this. In this case you basically asked for a quarter tone fingering and I would not "bend" it so much as "place it" 1/4th tone flatter than the F pitch. Relative to this, I play with the head joint out a bit more than average for a few reasons and I find it easier to lip a pitch down. Generally, more easier than lipping it up.

"Maybe quarter-tone fingerings are more suitable for quarter-tone scales than for isolated quarter-tones."
I would not differentiate so specifically. If you know a quarter tone fingering for a required pitch in a piece, then I'd go for it. Remember that the intended sound is the goal(relative to Pitch, tone quality and tuning) not so much how you get it.

"I, myself, have no flute at all and never plan to acquire one. I don't play the flute. I have two things in mind, most immediately a particular flautist (and I keep forgetting to ask her what kind of flute she has), less immediately whoever else may come along and play my piece. In the latter case there's no way of knowing."

Thanks, this clarifies tome that you are actually writing a piece.
Considerations in this:
1)What sort of player is it intended? Professional, student, Amateur?
2) What sort of instrument they use? A flutist named Robt. Dick has a "slide Headjoint". This is the only one that I've ever heard of and I doubt that it will catch on. I'd call it an expensive deviation. Like turning a flute into a slide whistle. So, I'd say that generally flutists try to find a pitch and then hit it accurately and consistently `or they should have this capability. So if one were writing an educational piece, I'd probably try to educate younger players on traditional tonalities and how to play them in tune before teaching them how to deviate the pitches. I'm not saying that your creative sense is a wrong or bad thing though.
What I was more concerned with was whether or not the player has keys on their flute with open holes. Most players that would play this sort of more advanced techniques do have them and they can use the open holes to do slides. Slides can't be done so well though by slowly lowering the keys. And playing a fingering with the finger off the open hole of the key cup can get tricky because the proximity of the finger flesh to the hole and the amount of space that the finger has to close the key without bumping something else.
So, generally on flute when a "Gliss." is written or a ~~~~line is written between two notes, I'd tell a student to play as many notes (Traditional 12 tone tonality ) as possible. In this, it depends upon the distance between the notes and the amount of exposure of the flute (Solo/Band arrangement for example.) but may involve a chromatic scale, a diatonic scale or simply something of an arpeggio.

Of course, as a composer one could simply write the figure and then just leave it up to the player to figure out how to do it. Relative to this, I'd think that one of the biggest challenges of a composer writing for an instrument is to write something artistic, suited for the instrument but at the same time challenging enough for their interest and development. ...give them that "it's a great piece after you've learned to play it" effect. So without passing any sort of criticism on your music, I'd think that as a goal in a composition, you'd want something of a piece that is rewarding for the composer, the performer and the listeners. If these effects serve these goals in your piece then absolutely use them.

I hope that this is helping in some way,
~bilbo
N.E. Ohio

I should also add something about flute acoustics relative to quarter tones.
Generally, it is with flute that one can take a fingering and lower it slightly by skipping a key and then lowering fingers.
for example:
Take the note: F T123/400 D#
By skipping a hole and lowering other keys, one can lower the pitch a certain amount.
T123/406D#
also by adding another key: T123/406 (With D# pinkey up- D# key closed) and also possibly adding the low pinkey on the C# key and if equipped-C and B roller keys. This is essentially then a flattened F fingering.
This sort of means has been around since before flutes had keys.
For example on Traverso:
The fingering for A=120/0000 becomes Ab when you finger it: 120/456

So, in the 1800s T. Boehm came along and he was trying to produce a flute that played more in tune and he devised a scheme for the mechanism where the finger hole size was dramatically enlarged and the locations of the holes were carefully placed to allow the flutist to sound a more in tune chromatic scale with a respectably larger tone quality. One of the things that was not in his intent was to play gliss./port. because he perceived that the two important faults of the earlier flute were basically tuning and inferior dynamic ranges/tone for solo work.

~bilbo
N.E. Ohio

I consider the term "bending the pitch" a misnomer because to me it represents more of the act if sliding up or down and the sound that results as one is doing this.

Whether or not it's a misnomer we have to call it something: I'm open to suggestions. I take it to mean, however, making a pitch bent, rather than necessarily making it progressively more bent. Bent here is of course figurative, and I take it to mean deliberately playing a pitch significantly higher or lower than the pitch one normally attempts with a given fingering. In this case since the normal E is played immediately before with no rest in between, if the E fingering is retained there will inevitably be, I think, progressively more bending, a bit of a slide, but the slide is unlikely to be very noticeable.

In this case you basically asked for a quarter tone fingering...

Not really. I'd already found a table of quarter-tone fingerings in cyberspace the day before I started the thread. Here I wanted a comparative discussion of the different methods of producing a quarter-tone.

Relative to this, I play with the head joint out a bit more than average for a few reasons and I find it easier to lip a pitch down. Generally, more easier than lipping it up.

I thought "lipping" meant beginning a phrase without tonguing the first note, a common jazz trumpet and saxophone expressive device in the swing era. Anyway: In what contexts do you find yourself doing this ("bending" downward)?

I would not differentiate so specifically. If you know a quarter tone fingering for a required pitch in a piece, then I'd go for it.

As I say, it's pretty easy to find on the Internet a chart of quarter-tone fingerings for the entire range of the flute.

Remember that the intended sound is the goal(relative to Pitch, tone quality and tuning) not so much how you get it.

Naturally, but since it's my responsibility to make sure it can be got, it behooves me to consider how.

Thanks, this clarifies tome that you are actually writing a piece.

Not quite. The piece in question (actually a brace of pieces) was written eight years ago, for viola and guitar. I transcribed it for flute and guitar a bit before I started this thread because my flautist friend and I needed something to play for a coming concert (of sorts), and circumstances had forced us to set aside the thing we originally had planned to play.

What I was more concerned with was whether or not the player has keys on their flute with open holes.

I finally remembered to ask. My friend has an open-hole flute.

I'd think that as a goal in a composition, you'd want something of a piece that is rewarding for the composer, the performer and the listeners. If these effects serve these goals in your piece then absolutely use them.

If it's not somehow rewarding to some performer somewhere, no one will ever know whether it's rewarding to listeners. The glissando is merely an expressive flourish. It sounds okay as a slurred chromatic scale fragment, but I'd find it more rewarding as portamento. My flautist friend does not find the notion of attempting portamento rewarding, however, and refuses to consider it.

The quarter-tone, on the other hand, has inherently to do with the theoretical (that is, logical) construction of the piece. When my friend told me she could bend as much as a semitone we discarded the idea of using a special quarter-tone fingering (she was never the slightest bit enthusiastic about the idea anyway), but, alas, I have not so far found her bent quarter-tone at all satisfactory, let alone rewarding. She complains that it takes a lot of breath to bend a pitch. I don't know if it occurred to her to try bending downward from the F.

A quick response for lack of time:
"She complains that it takes a lot of breath to bend a pitch. I don't know if it occurred to her to try bending downward from the F."
"bending" the pitch by lipping up or down will also modify the tone usually.
Up will often require thins like more support, blowing higher on the embouchure plate, more support, stronger embouchure muscles and more support. This may often translate to a more diffuse, brighter, louder quality to the sound and may take more air for the player.
Lipping down, or bending down if you prefer will often result in a quieter dynamic or less projected tone. (Like covering your mouth with hand when talking.)

Flutists probably don't like the portamento effect because it isn't so much possible. The voilin family has a fingerboard without frets. The only compariso that comes to mind is the "fipple-type flute" called a slide whistle.

Flutists probably don't like the portamento effect because it isn't so much possible. The voilin family has a fingerboard without frets.

As I've already mentioned, a portamento effect on a violin obviously presents no difficulty at all (so long as we limit ourselves to a single string). That's irrelevant.

If, as my flautist friend (f.f. from now on) avers, one can bend as much as a semitone per flute fingering, and if the flute can play a fingered chromatic scale, as we all know it can, then it fairly beggars logic to say it's impossible to achieve a portamento effect on the flute. Possible is of course different from easy, but bear in mind that we only need the illusion of a continuously descending pitch, which should allow us ample room for fudging.

"If, as my flautist friend (f.f. from now on) avers, one can bend as much as a semitone per flute fingering,"

Please inform your f.f. that "bending" of notes a whole tone is possible under proper circumstances.
If one includes the distance from bending up as far as possible (Semi-tone) and bending down (full whole tone) I have found that the total of a minor third/augmented second is possible from maintaining one fingering. Of course this is somewhat dependent on the note. e.g.: Higher notes are more easily "bent" than the lowest notes in the flute's range.

As for what's possible and what's impossible? Hmmmm? From my experience, a composer may be able to write a piece of music which is theoretically possible to play but in the practical world, impossible to master with any semblance of quality. One example of this that I ran into recently on another forum 'might' be considered the 4th Mvt. of Prokofiev's Symphony No. 1 in D major, Op 25 -his "Classical Symphony" in the Flute part. It is perceived by some of reputed quality that this flute part is "too difficult" and as a result I've seen that it is recommended that a flute section rewrite the music to make it "playable". To my mind this example is a trend towards flute performance 'lite' for those that for whatever reason are not able to master the instrument but instead value the workarounds to problems that are difficult to achieve otherwise.

Generally in the past history of flute performance, doing long Glissandi have been done by the means that I mentioned. As a review:
http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/textg/Glissando.html
If you have discovered another means that I am unaware of, then please use it in your composition but humbly offered as a suggestion, I'd include some sort of educational instruction on this technique in the manuscript so that those interested in performing your piece can do the effect as you intend.

~bilbo
N.E. Ohio