Hi!

I will play Telemann in next audition by end of June. It is a Trio, Flute, Horn or Viola and Basso C.

I could not get a Horn but I have a Viola player who agrees to play with me. But I have to provide the score for the Viola. The original score I have is for Horn, but written in G clef. I know the horn transposes a fifth so to prepare my midi files I take that into account.

But the viola player told me the viola does not transpose. However, I read that the viola is tuned a perfect fifth below the violin (i.e. as the horn is).

Is she player right? This is giving me problems for the midi files I use. Also, I am not sure if the score I made in C (3rd line) clef is correct, as I did not lowered the notes a fifth (it is not necessary with the horn, but with the viola)? The midi harmonically is OK, but the reason could be that Finale knows it is a horn (or a viola) and plays correct concert pitch.

Can somebody help? I need an urgent reply, sorry...

According to Wikipedia, Viola is not a transposing instrument (same as says the player, and she should know).

I do not understand this, however, as Finale treats the viola as it does with the horn i.e. it plays it at a different concert pitch.

This disconcerts me (not just a play of words)

Hi Jose Luis,

1) the Viola in Finale is written in the Viola Clef. This means that middle C is on the center line of the staff.

2) So, the F Horn part is a transposing instrument. This means for example that a C on french horn sound an F in the flute and Viola's key.
f one writes for example for the three instruments
Flute in C major: CDED
French Horn G major (these are the same sounding notes) GABA
Viola. In C major: CDEF (But the C is on the middle line of the viola clef.

A guide. to transpose the F horn into the key of the viola or flute. Take away a sharp or add a flat. If there are three sharps, tanspose the F horn notes into the key of two sharps. If there are two flats write the viola in the key of Three flats.

Hope this helps
~bilbo
N.E. Ohio

Oh my! I am afraid there could be no Trio with Viola this time. So much complicated? Maybe you could help a little further. Here are more details of what is done so far:

- The work is a Minuet from the Concerto a Tre, in F major. There is of course one flat on the key signature, for all instruments except for the horn.
- The horn is written in G clef
- The horn sounds harmonically OK in Finale "as is".
- Some time ago, I wanted to replace the horn with a second flute; I had lowered all notes a fifth and this worked OK (a few flats had to be added by hand and I took due care of the notes that were out of range for the second flute, but that was easy. The missing flats were discovered and corrected simply by ear. This was my original project, playing the Trio with two flutes. But,

- Now comes the viola. Had I had access to a horn player there would be no problem. But I only have a possible Viola and I prefer this to a second flute that is playing at its lowest range all the time and does not fit very well.

So I changed the instrument from horn to "viola" in Finale and it still sounds harmonically correct. I made no changes to the clef or any other transposition. So far, so good (I thought..)

- But the viola player obviously wants her part written in "C" clef or at least in "F" clef. So I changed clef to the middle "C" clef in Finale and as a result I had a bunch of notes well down the five staff lines. Sounded awful, too. So I transposed that result (in C clef) an octave up. Then tried the piece by ear and still sounded harmonically good (there may be details, but I have not checked all of them).

- So far, so good, I thought again. But the reality seems to be different.

First, because I do not understand quite well what I have done. Second, because I did not lowered the thing a fifth down, as was my theoretical idea for a non-transposing instrument (for the flute, the fifth down transposition worked OK). Third, (this one according to your suggestion), because there are changes to be made at the key signature

I may try the signature changes, only that, if I have no flats in the horn/viola staff, (but one flat in the G and F clefs), what should I have on the Viola C clef signature to be correct?

Sorry very much to bother you with this problem; I understand it's complicated and my explanations are long and boring.

But I really have no much additional resources to get information and to go ahead with my project. And playing this Trio is very important for me.

If everything goes fine, I will have the opportunity of playing it with actual (an professional) Horn and Cello in August. That would be a great achievement for me, no matter that it will be a "domestic" small concert, just for us three. So my coming audition is not only that, but a kind of rehearsal for August.

I would rather clarify that the horn in this Telemann work (and the one in August) is a horn in F.

hi Jose Luis,
To keep things not confusing....
"I may try the signature changes, only that, if I have no flats in the horn/viola staff, (but one flat in the G and F clefs), what should I have on the Viola C clef signature to be correct?"
The flute and viola should have the same key signatures. But the viola should be in the
clef that has the middle C on the middle line.

This may be easier to do if you start fresh with the new document wizard in Finale.
It may become confused if you simply try to make the notes from french horn to Viola.


To add to the confusion from Wikipedia:
"Today, music for the horn is typically written in F (or sometimes, notably in British bands, in E-flat), and sounds a perfect fifth lower than written (or a major sixth lower for the E-flat horn). The limitations on the range of the instrument are primarily governed by the available valve combinations for the first four octaves of the overtone series and after that by the ability of the player to control the pitch through their air supply and embouchure. The typical written ranges for the horn start at either the F-sharp immediately below the bass clef or the C an octave below middle C.

The standard range starting from a low F-sharp is based on the characteristics of the single horn in F. However, there is a great deal of music written beyond this range on the assumption that players are using a double horn in F/B-flat. This is the standard orchestral instrument and its valve combinations allow for the production of every chromatic tone from two octaves on either side of the horn's written middle-C (sounding F two octaves below the bass clef to F at the top of the treble clef). Although the upper range of the horn repertoire rarely exceeds high C (two octaves above the horn's middle C, sounding F at the top of the treble clef), skilled players can achieve yet higher pitches.

Also important to note is that many pieces from the Baroque to Romantic periods are written in keys other than F. This practice began in the early days of the horn before valves, when the composer would indicate the key the horn should be in (horn in D, horn in C, etc.) and the part would be notated as if it were in C. For a player with a valveless horn that is a help, showing where in the harmonic series a particular note is. A player with a modern instrument must provide the final transposition to the correct pitch. For example, a written C for horn in D must be transposed down a minor third and played as an A on F horn."

<Added>

and the wiki on Viola ...for the range and clef.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola

Jose Luis,
When you say that you transposed from F horn to Viola, I'm not sure how this was done. With all due respect.
For example, if you wanted the same sounds from the F horn as for the flute, the notes for the horn would have to be written the P5 higher. If you transpose this to The Viola Clef, this would give you some leger lines under the notes.

Bilbo,
"When you say that you transposed from F horn to Viola, I'm not sure how this was done. "

What I did is simpluy to change the instrument definition in the "Window" Menu --> instrument list--> selected Viola (instrument 42).

The file now sounds as a viola (let's say, rather close to an actual viola) and no changes to the clef or notes were made. That is, the "viola" staff was still in G clef.

In the second step, I changed the clef same staff to middle "C" using the clef tool.

In the third step, I transposed the staff an octave up because if was too low (in my non-expert opinion)

In any case, there are no flats in the new "C" viola clef, although I define that "C" staff to be in F major.

Maybe the F major signature in C clef has no flats, for reasons that are beyond my current range of knowledge.

I will try to upload both the resulting mp3 and the pdf score to this site.

I will advise as soon as the files are uploaded, but I have to go to my class in half an hour and maybe it will be later today.

<Added>

OK, I uploaded three files to my profile: the score (pdf) with viola in C clef, a resulting mp3 file and a midi in case you or someone else wants to input it into a edition program. But everything is "pending for approval". Hope it does not take too long.

I may have an opportunity of asking some questions to a Viola teacher this afternoon, if we coincide at the school. In this case I will try to show her/him the score with the horn and with the viola and maybe we can clarify what should be done...

Update:

I checked my score with my flute teacher and it is clearly wrong.

But I understand now how to do it correctly. I will change the wrong file I uploaded and post again.

Jose,
If you have the original F horn part this is what you should do.
1. Take the horn part and change the clef from Treble to Alto.
2. Move every note up from a line to the next line up, from a space to the next space up.
3. Key signature, if the Horn part is written in a key signature then add one flat to the key signature. If the horn part is not in a key signature then adjust everything so it is a minor 2nd higher after the clef change. (So the G on the horn part becomes an A when you change to Alto clef, and then when you move it up a space it become C).


<Added>

Aha! you posted before I posted. I hope my suggestion is similar to your teachers.

Your explanations are very clear, thank you.

Though it is not the way I did, as I started from concert pitch and changed clef afterwards. I had to transpose again (a fifth up, if I remember it correctly). As I made a brand new file, there is a flat in the second space signature (which was not before). It sounds good to me.

What we did with my teacher is check in the clef of C, whether the notes were the same as in the G clef, after I had written the original horn notes but in concert pitch (a fifth down from horn originally written note). They were not, I had to add a second to the notes in C clef I had.

But I did it all over again and I think that now I have the correct notes. I have uploaded the new files to my profile, but they are pending for approval once more. Hopefully in a couple of hours they will be accessible.




<Added>

OK , the three files are now accessible at my profile (score, mp3 and midi)

Hi Jose Luis,
I was away for several hours.
I think that I'm still seeing the mistaken Viola as I believe that the Viola should be in the same key as the flute. In this case 1 flat in the key sig.

"What I did is simpluy to change the instrument definition in the "Window" Menu --> instrument list--> selected Viola (instrument 42)."
<This only changes the sound that is being heard and not the transposition.

In the second step, I changed the clef same staff to middle "C" using the clef tool.
Does not change the transposition.
In the third step, I transposed the staff an octave up because if was too low (in my non-expert opinion) This also does not change the transposition to a different key.

I Have Finale 2006.
I can change the staff attributes for the French Horn by going to tools, staff (Or by selecting the staff icon. then right clicking on the staff.

Change Clef to C clef.
Then Change staff name to Viola
Then under transposition, uncheck the box for transposition.
Remember that the program automatically transposed up P5 when you selected the Horn in F for the name of the staff.
That should do it if you can revert to that old horn part first.

Remember that the Viola should have the same key signature as the Flute and Cello.
The Horn is written up a perfect 5th if the horn notes are in the Treble staff.

~bilbo
N.E. Ohio

You are right Bilbo; for some reason the uploaded PDF file was not updated. My Finale file correctly displays one flat in the C clef key signature, however.

I have just uploaded it again, but as it is pending for revision once more, right now I cannot tell whether this time it is the correct version.

Johnlovemusic:

I do not understand your comment about adding one flat to the transposed staff. I think that all instruments in the piece must play in the same key, whatever the clef their respective players can read.

So, if I add a second flat to the viola which is already in F major (one flat), she would be playing in B Flat major (two signature flats) which does not seem to be correct.

My playing with the viola is at risk in any case, because I have been strongly recommended by teacher to do this only if I can add a cello. (And not with Bassoon or another flute playing B.C). Unfortunately I have been unable to get a cello for the required date so far. But I continue searching.

Other alternatives are a duet of two flutes or, I suppose, quite a beautiful Trio of two flutes + bassoon. Will see what destiny has prepared for me this time.

I am working also on the first allegro, but right now I am too slow for a reasonable performance of the three parts.

In the meantime I have purchased an AKG Perception 220 condenser mike + a Yamaha audiogram 6 mixer/phantom supply (both not yet received).

So I will be able to make decent recordings in the coming days, at least from the electronics point of view...

Hi Jose Luis,
I see no Telemann on your page now. It may be that you removed the old files first and this may be a good way to refresh their page.

"In the meantime I have purchased an AKG Perception 220 condenser mike + a Yamaha audiogram 6 mixer/phantom supply (both not yet received).

So I will be able to make decent recordings in the coming days, at least from the electronics point of view... "

Of course I'm going to be curious as to your opinion of this equipment Jose Luis.
Please keep us informed.

Of course I'll do.

The pdf file is now back on my profile, but, incredibly enough, the flat is missing again! I was sure that I had uploaded the right version with the flat on it.

And PDFs are not modifiable, not even by an over jealous admin, so it must be me. I may be losing my senses. I will check *very* carefully before uploading it again, maybe putting it in first in a different file holder to be sure. I can send also by PM if you like

<Added>

sorry I believe I used wrong word.

jealous--> zealous.