I need stronger spring for second trill

    
I need stronger spring for second trill    08:32 on Monday, February 22, 2010          

jose_luis
(2369 points)
Posted by jose_luis

Hi!

I had my Yamaha 674 modifies and its second trill lowered almost to the level of the adjacent hole plates. It helped me to avoid hitting the trill key, but now -sometimes- I can press the trill inadvertently as it is at the same level that the plat.

I would like to have a stronger spring on that trill key. I believe it is made of white gold. Its visible part is about20 millimetres (sorry for not using imperial units). I do not wish to bend it, as I fear breaking it.

I am not enthusiastic about sending it again to the technician; it takes too long, almost two weeks, I need the flute now and also I am not 100% satisfied with the work done (only 95%...)

My idea: I could wrap carefully a thin copper wire around the spring and then slide this to the end, to raise the end where it fits on the key lever groove and so increase its resistance.

Could it work?

Any better idea?

Thanks!


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    12:21 on Monday, February 22, 2010          

Pyrioni
(437 points)
Posted by Pyrioni

1) I don't think 674 has white gold spring, maybe 774 yes(?). I mean even on my Sankyo CF401 it's still steel spring, (CF401 is twice more expensive than 674), only CF501 has white gold spring(arghh...our principal flute has CF501, he laughed at me last week, he said "I have white gold spring!", but paying extra U$600 for white gold that's silly).

2) Your 674 is probably steel spring too, don't worry just bend it, it won't break, I adjust springs strength on my 211 all the time with MusicMedic's spring bending tool/rod. Never broke one spring in the past 5 years. If it IS white gold, it's more flexible/resilient than steel, won't even able to break at all.

3) adding thin copper wire wraping the spring won't work I think, it only increases friction to your spring(makes spring less flexible to do the job), also it increases the spring travelling distance(same thing as bending the spring)

4) this lesson teaches you not to modify the Almighty flute design. I think the modern flute design is already perfect. except I need an additional C# and G# trill.

<Added>

I Just got used to my Sankyo 401
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qa36TlCba4

<Added>

arrr..not quite.. too much overtones, I think I should blow a little more downward
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcrMkgzw5e8


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    13:45 on Monday, February 22, 2010          

musicman_944
(257 points)
Posted by musicman_944

Adding wire to a spring will most likely interfere with it's normal operation. Adjusting the spring tension by careful bending is the normal method. In extreme cases, a heavier spring can be installed.

Perhaps you should look at another approach altogether. If your fingers are inadvertently hitting the trill keys, you might consider that there could be an issue with your hand position. If your flute is rolled out too far or if your right thumb is too far under the flute, the end result is that your RH fingers may be too curved and too close to the flute which results in the fingers contacting the trill keys.


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    15:19 on Monday, February 22, 2010          

jose_luis
(2369 points)
Posted by jose_luis

Thank you for your answers.

The Yamaha.com (USA site) says this model has white gold springs. See: http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail.html?CNTID=2183&CTID=237900

I acknowledge my RH position is not perfect but I cannot change it easily and, most important, quick enough.

I could say that I want it all and I need it now (my apologies for the poor quoting).

If I can't fit to the instrument then the instrument will have to fit me. That's the deal.

I have changed a few things already, all resuletd in important improvements: Changed the EC cut HJ to a DA Nagahara, plugged the open holes for ever and will replace the B foot by a C foot as soon as I can find one cheap and good enough for it.

The trill issue is much better now, but I believe I still need to make the spring stronger somehow.

I will check that tool to bend it unless a simpler solution pops up here.


<Added>

Is this the appropriate bending tool?
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/tool-pl103.html


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    19:56 on Monday, February 22, 2010          

musicman_944
(257 points)
Posted by musicman_944

MusicMedic makes a good tool. Medium-small crochet hooks work well also if you use a small jewelers file and file a notch into the end. Whichever tool you use, the hook is used to pull the spring while the notch is used to push it. Typically, the spring hook is used only to hook/unhook the spring in the cradle. Usually for adjusting trill key springs, I just bend the spring with my fingers. I place one index finger against the spring, near the post it is attached to and then with a finger from the opposite hand, I push the spring against the first finger to bend the spring just a little. Placing a finger at the post cushions the spring and provides a soft curve to push against. That reduces the likelihood that you will get a sharp bend where the spring exits the post. I like for the springs to be bent with a very shallow arc along the spring rather than as a straight line with an angle near the post. Sharp bends are more likely to break.

Start with a very slight increase in the spring tension and try playing. If you are not satisfied with the tension, then repeat the process until you have it the way you want.


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    21:50 on Monday, February 22, 2010          

Pyrioni
(437 points)
Posted by Pyrioni

Musicman talks about this tool:
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/tool-sh101.html

Wow, you even permanently sealed your open holes?
I got used to my open holes in 1 month's time, have you tried wearing rings on your RH middle finger and ring finger? I have heard some adults wear big silver rings to separate their middle and ring fingers.

<Added>

I think plugging the holes on open holes might flatten the intonation a little. I asked this question on flute list, Jim of Burkart-Flute replied and told me it won't. But I still noticed some flatness on tuner after I plugged the holes, around -5 cents, so I unplug them all and got used to my new hand position in 1 month's time, that month was horrible with so many leaks.


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    22:07 on Monday, February 22, 2010          

Pyrioni
(437 points)
Posted by Pyrioni

My point is, may be adults have even much longer difficult time to adapt, but it's not impossible, we are human, man, we can adapt, may be take you much longer, but try adapt, instead of modify on your flute all the time.


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    22:35 on Monday, February 22, 2010          

Bilbo
(1340 points)
Posted by Bilbo

Many people actually have issue with the right hand key locations. Some flutes have a more or less different location of these keys where reaching the third (ring )finger is more difficult. This provides an issue of stretching or perception of stretching for that finger.

There is only so much leverage that any given spring will provide. A problem with bending a spring with such a tool is that it may bend the spring only at the root where it attaches to the post and I believe that the spring should bend all along as in an arc. Bending it in such a manner may cause a weakening of the metal at that one spot an no great increase in leverage.


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    00:06 on Tuesday, February 23, 2010          

Pyrioni
(437 points)
Posted by Pyrioni

Thank you Bilbo, yes, you're so right, on flute the RH last 3 fingers are always the trouble ones maybe becoz middle/ring/pinky are all linked to one tendon, that affects each other(prevent them from independent). I have been practicing Trevor Wye's lower notes exercises for 6 months now - very useful to separate my pinky from the other 2 fingers. Also, I heard wearing rings on middle and ring fingers helped many adults to separate fingers distance.


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    04:27 on Tuesday, February 23, 2010          

jose_luis
(2369 points)
Posted by jose_luis

- Wow, you even permanently sealed your open holes?
- I got used to my open holes in 1 month's time
- have you tried wearing rings on your RH middle finger and ring finger?
- I think plugging the holes on open holes might flatten the intonation a little.
- my point is, may be adults have even much longer difficult time to adapt, but it's not impossible, we are human, man, we can adapt, may be take you much longer


- I plugged them with nice Powell metal-top plugs. The instrument looks almost exactly as if it were closed-holes from factory. And I decide not to ever unplug it, enough experimenting with open holes.

- I could adapt to three of the open holes in a few months, but never to the RH index. I purchased this YFL674 with open holes just because I wanted to force myself in correcting the wrong RH position, but I have been unable in five years. I think it is enough time and now is time to progress with what I can actually achieve. My RH position is not so bad as to get criticized by my teacher, but she acknowledges the problem with the low D-trill interference. Most people adapt to open holes, in line G, etc. Not me.

- I do not care much about a slight flattening because of the plugs. Intonation on the flute is a big issue and must be continuously corrected and in real time by the player, no matter how perfect the instrument scale could be.

- You are right -and young enough- and I am happy that you can take advantage of this natural fact. But we have a rather huge age difference, mine is more than four times yours at present times and I am quite concious of my limitations. One of these limitations is the time I have still available to reach an acceptable level and enjoy playing the music I like. I know this is a sad statement, but nonetheless, completely true.

- Using a RH ring is an idea to try, in my case it should be rather large as my fingers are long but thin. I may try this suggestion, thank you.

- bending the (whatever material) spring looks not so difficult. But unless I use some tool like the double hook you have linked me to, for example to use my fingers to bend it as suggested, I think I would have to disassemble the flute. And just a few days after I received it from the technician, fully COAded... I do not like the idea.


<Added>

Seems that "
" "
" labels are not working, sorry.


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    05:56 on Tuesday, February 23, 2010          

Bilbo
(1340 points)
Posted by Bilbo

Jose Luis,
on another forum I and Jen Cluff posted a few recordings of the plugs issue. Her finding is that pacing full-depth plugs into the holes is inconsequential. It was 1 cent=100th of a semitone. I'm not sure how she measured it frankly. In my test with Electrical tape over the holes the only guess came from a pro performer and instrument maker who guess whether or not I had covered the wholes. He was wrong.
I would say that the only difference in tone or sound is not audible. Open holes is a sales gimmick unless one intends to do certain avant garde effects such as quarter tone tuning (Which can be lipped), glissandi, or multiphonics.

Using a ring on any of the the right hand fingers to spread the fingers apart would interfere with finger movement up and down. This is especially true because all movement should come from the joints nearest the palm of that hand below the area of any rings. The only finger that can be said to compromise this motion is the Left index.

Part of the purpose of the practice of long tones is to mind covering the holes. This issue of covering is accomplished with 100% diligence to correcting the problem daily and is an ongoing process. Going fast with the fingers would usually undermine this diligence because it is distracting and one tends to compromise their mental focus. Mind you Jose Luis, I don't know how you've done in this area so I am really not targeting you in any such criticism. The question can be resolved in the fact as to whether or not you can cover the holes when you have the flute down and you aren't playing but just looking at your fingers & how they cover the key holes. The very issue of the difference between the F, E and D keys being of varied location that I mentioned is one that my 80 year -old teacher has complained of. We compared our two flutes of the same brand(Mine from 1982 and his from 1947) and they are different enough to be a real issue. In regard to this issue of covering/sealing the holes with the fingers, Micron said (very correctly) a long time ago that many people have a problem with dry hands and leaks from even the smaller parts of the fingerprints. I think that this issue is more prevalent than most flutists realize. It shows up as a good partial reason that they aren't aware of as to why they buy the high E linkage flutes and also why their tone on certain notes such as D2, Eb2, E2 sounds less than desirable. Some people also have issues with small finger pads and others have issue with finger location on the holes.

It is not my place to teach anyone online but practicing for co-ordination development in the pinkey and 3rd fingers is another issue completely of course. That issue can and should be done by practicing all scales and arpeggios down to the lowest notes slurred, minding one's issues and working them carefully as fast as they can be done musically correct. As one example the f#d7 arpeggio can be tricky because of the C1-Eb1 slur but there are many others like
playing the triplet ||:D2-E2-F#2:|| for about 15 minutes per day. I'm not completely against them, but not all that partial to Wye's books because I have bought and paid for ALL of the books that he used to cherry pick his exercises out of.



Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    06:39 on Tuesday, February 23, 2010          

Pyrioni
(437 points)
Posted by Pyrioni

Bilbo, you are right...

Also, you are right on about Trevor Wye's shorten version from every exercises. But time is so short to practise ALL the exercises on the market. I guess that's why many teachers all over the world love Trevor Wye's exercises 1-5 & 6. Becoz time is little for us students. I practise at least 4 hours a day and still can't even finish all the scales and exercises. But after 2 years, I have done basic scales and Trevor Wye book 1-6(except circular breathing), now I am on Moyse's daily scale exercises(suggested by sir Galway) - that is a killer, so hard after E.

<Added>

my point is, first finish Trevor Wye's basics, then move on to those detailed original exercises -for example Marcel Moyse's exercises.

<Added>

Jose Luis, oh so sorry, I didn't know you are so old, I thought you were 30-40 or something ;)


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    11:52 on Tuesday, February 23, 2010          

jose_luis
(2369 points)
Posted by jose_luis

Yes, so much to do, to learn and to play. And so little time available.

My coming back to open holes is completely out of question. Even if they had a bigger impact than told by Bilbo. They are sometimes necessary for modern or special music such as Flamenco. My teacher has just issued a CD on this genre and she uses note bending and the like. Maybe this can be lipped, but open holes surely makes it easier. But I am not going to play that sort of music, I do not like it.


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    12:03 on Tuesday, February 23, 2010          

contra448
(771 points)
Posted by contra448

I have always been sceptical about the use of open hole flutes for the vast majority of players. Most of these flutes I see through my workshop have at least one hole plugged. On another forum an experienced flute player/technician has commented that he has discovered that there is noticable leakage on open hole flutes with the light finger pressure that players use.

As an aside a move back to Boehm's original design with open G# would make the flute more reliable with one less tone hole, no double G key & no need for split E mechanism.

Ian

Bassoon & bari sax player.
Woodwind repairer.


Re: I need stronger spring for second trill    12:18 on Tuesday, February 23, 2010          

Pyrioni
(437 points)
Posted by Pyrioni

Yes, one reason I'm unpluging all the holes now, becoz I found my flute hand position is much better now on open hole flute. It forces me to, lol...^_^

Few years ago, William Bennett came here to give us masterclass, he let me play on his open G# flute, I remember it was Louis Lot, I couldn't play it, not used to it later I heard his flute got stolen.





   








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