"I offered some help in suggesting you not necessarily focus on the material of the head."

Whenever the topic of flute buying comes up, the discussions always seem to degenerate into a discussion of whether the material the flute or headjoint is made out of matters or not. The bottom line is that even though the flute makers could cut a silver plated headjoint to sound as full and rich as the silver, gold, platinum ones, they don't. They cut them different and if you want a better sounding headjoint, you pay for the more expensive metal. So it does matter what material the headjoint is made out of.

Well I play a Mateki silver plated flute. In most respects the body is fine, but I do think it is possible to upgrade the tone of my flute with a different headjoint. I put a borrowed Burkhart headjoint on it and it did sound fuller. So if you know of a cheap silver plated headjoint that would be an upgrade to the hand cut silver plated headjoint I already have on it, let me know. Because so far, the only headjoint upgrades I've come across were solid silver or gold.

Chris - How does the Mateki headjoint compare to the standard Trevor James Masters' headjoint?

I find it more useful if people can do as you have done, and translate their ideas into an *actual* flute headjoint or flute brand/name.

Some of the above posts just rabbit on about geeky stuff which isn't really going to help anyone if the flute design/choice in their head, doesn't actually exist for the budget we most can afford.

I see a lot of good things about the Trevor James flutes and I've tried a few so I'm happy for their price point and quality. A Muramatsu or Yamaha is just out of my budget.

So far - the Pearl; Sonare; Dimedici and Trevor James come up less than the $2500k range.

Incidentally, I tried a cheap Justflutes as well as an unbranded chinese alto flute. Apart from feeling rather primitive in production, they were very sweet sounding but maybe lacking definition between the notes; possibly due to notes blurring into another, or a thin wall. But most likely, because of me and my limited skills in blowing.

Maybe I confused the issue here. My Mateki is a concert flute, my Trevor James is an alto. I don't think I would try to upgrade the head on the alto, unless I decide to put a wooden head on it for the celtic music I play.

My C flute is an older 1st generation mateki with a hand cut plated head from their main flute maker when they 1st started making flutes. My point Micron was that although I agree that unbiased tests show that it is not the silver that gives a headjoint its particular sound, the reality is that headjoint makers only use silver, gold etc... to make headjoints that are an upgrade from what usually come with the flute.

I have never compared say the Altus silver plated alto headjoints with their solid silver ones. But I wouldn't be surprised if the same holds true with them.

Absolutely. If you want to take this to the extreme, you see PVC pipe being used in sub contra-bass flutes and the like. The Blue Man group also uses cheap commodity pipe like this for many of their instruments. Though don't actually make a mouthpiece out of the stuff - it's highly toxic.

It's a big tube with holes in it. What it's made out of is really aesthetics and not much else, barring silly or truly exotic materials which 99% of even pros never would see or consider. Just concentrate on the sound - and be sure to try several mouthpieces as the tone and quality can vary greatly between each specific instrument, even though they are the same model.

Oh I see...the Mateki is a C concert flute, and not an Alto flute. That explains why I've never heard them make alto flutes maybe!

Well there's no danger of being short for discussion on flute materials. There is a huge danger of not being able to afford anything but the no name gutter flutes!


Well back on topic - here's another one which I tried out today, based on a lot of praise I've seen for it - the Trevor James Recital Alto flute with a Michael Allen head!

I don't know how I bluffed my way into test driving one. I was so excited I could barely finger "Three Blind Mice". It is a luxuriously gorgeous .925 solid silver flute throughout with 14k gold riser. Now I've tried Trevor James Performer flutes before - I really like these. I hear the discontinued Masters series probably sounded better too.

First thing I noticed about the Recital alto flute: I could barely make a sound out of it. I fumbled and fumbled for the embouchure. Realised that the flute is very heavy and my right hand thumb is taking the strain of it.

The headjoint is really funny peculiar. I can't seem to get a single note, which doesn't sound breathy (second octave) or buzzy (first octave). Top "E" is a substantial effort but I got there.

There 'feels' like a huge difference in tones between the 1st + 2nd octaves. the 1st octave is deep, rich and mellow. The 2nd octave, sounds like someone muted a C concert flute. It's almost like two breaks in the two octave - right at the stave line D,E or F notes.

Well I struggled on -and that head joint is sheer difficult to get! I was getting rather frustrated just trying to find the embouchure between slurred notes; between anything other than a single note. In short, I sound absolutely terrible on it. I'm so disappointed in me

Okay - so I've only been playing the flute for a few months, and I've tried about 6 different alto flutes now and hired two for a week.

I'm really surprised at how much harder the more expensive Michael Allen headjoint is. It seems to have the tiniest target blowing area I've ever heard. Now for an alto flute, that is a surprise, given that the embouchure is usually more relaxed.

Maybe I should just settle for a cheap unbranded alto flute, which I can at least play, rather than a specialist expensive alto flute, which I can barely get a note out of?

What is the cause of the 'buzziness' in the lower octave? Is it my lips getting in the way of the airflow? My teeth? It could be, because when I blow from my throat, it vanishes, but there is no way on earth, I can continue to blow and have enough breath left to finish a single 4/4 bar.

So many questions...and back to the drawing board. If I sound this bad on a $3.6K flute, I'm not sure I want to save up for it

That's quite an assumption you're assuming ... that nobody else has already told me.

You're absolutely right of course. The narrow-minded will always say that there is no reason why a numptie like me should be evaluating an alto flute when I have only a few months experience.

Let me let you into something: it's absolutely fun! I really love the alto flute tones and mellowness! I'd rather play an alto flute than a C concert flute any time!

As it is..i'm working on my insecure, underdeveloped, non-versatile embouchure. Bach's flute sonatas still sound like I'm raping them instead of bringing anything like music to them.

As it is, the specialist Michael Allen head isn't as 'freeblowing' as the Performer series on the TJ James flutes. I've read on another forum, that the Michael Allen has a tighter sweetspot and is more focussed. If's that the case, then it makes sense - I'm definitely not ready for a specialist head like this. The Performer Alto flute was much easier and fun to play with - very natural to blow and none of the hissing or buzzing at second or first octaves.

Although you say I'm not qualified to evaluate alto flutes - it's been a fantastic experience discovering the range, from the affordable, to the not-yet-affordable, like the Recital series. It's saved me wasting time on fantasising about a Michael Allen headjoint - I know it's going to take a lot of work to get my embouchure into shape. The 'student' alto flutes are simply more forgiving for student embouchure issues.

I think I need to live in a city where I can get more access to demo flute stores

IME, the bodies are pretty much a non-factor other than weight and fingering issues. Spend your time with the headjoint. ie - if the cheaper headjoint sounds better, then use that on whatever body you like - or vice-versa.

And, yes, some are just terribly, frustratingly, annoyingly hard to play. Even among the same make and model. I think there's just little to no care and quality control these days when it comes to cutting embouchure holes. So double-check to be sure.

Numptie- I think you have figured quite abit out about the alto. One thing about flutes in general is that it seems the better the headjoint, the more skill you will need to make that dog sing. Student flutes are much easier blowing, but with much less potential. With the C flute, when you start playing, most people will tend to blow too hard and tight lipped, and over time will learn to relax as their embochure develops. For the alto, the embochure really needs to be relaxed and the flute blown softly and smoothly. So I think it is hard for a beginner to do much with the alto until they have practised alot on it. It's unfortunate the Trevor James Master Series alto you bought didn't work out. As I said I paid $1300 for my used one last year and it is certainly adequate for someone like me.

Thanks Plekto

I've tried about 7 headjoints so far, and it seems the standard flat headjoint, solid silver riser is nicest. I had tried an unbranded chinese one with engravings in gold. Now whereas the engravings may just be ornamental, I found it easier to locate my embouchure position just by the feel. It felt really good and made a great sound.

I don't think I would get away with getting the shop assistants to pull out 8K headjoints for me to play 'Twinkle twinkle little star' with. They might notice something is amiss lol.

Ideally I think I'm going to try and save up and get a decent student alto flute, rather like the Trevor James Performer one.


Hey Chris - thanks for the feedback about the Masters series flute. I think the problem is, the one I had, was clearly used and worn, and 'drifted', so that no matter what I did, I couldn't reproduce the same sound with any consistency, like I could with the cheaper (and newer) Performer series. the Masters' series one I tried was ages old - it was prob. in need of a service. I had a really bad time buying used flutes (my C concert flute was used, and although it only cost 25% of the original price in the same condition, it has infuriated the living daylights out of me, because it was misaligned with non-sealing keys, so I couldn't find the second octave for over a month!).

You're right about the more expensive headjoints - that really takes some skill to use. I can breathe from my throat and reduce lip resistance to get the right tones and sounds, but there always seems to be more of a 'sizzling'sound accompanying my playing. That is my undeveloped embouchure control no doubt.

I'm definitely going for a new alto flute, rather than a used one, which although would be a bargain - I could never tell whether it's me who needs to improve, or whether a used flute, needed readjustment. The frustration of trying to work out the problem would kill me!

Well I've been watching Suzanne Teng (Mystic Journey) for ages, and see how relaxed her embouchure is;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQAc8nRS0sA&feature=related


It's having enough breath to play a phrasing as long as hers which I can't do yet - I get light headed and feel like I'm coming down with man flu lol.

$1300 is a very good price for a Masters series flute. That is the same price as the Trevor James Nickel Plated Performer series.

Hi I have mastered circular breathing as it really helps me in developing sound and different harmonics. It also helps me with my big flutes like my Alto Dean Yang and Bass Flute Emerson .I never run out of breath either lol

Doug

Hi Dogster,

I am very good at circular reasoning ... but no good at circular breathing.

Is there a good internet or book resource to learn about this method? At the minute, my main problem is that my mouth is too big. I mean, my embouchure is too big, so I can feel a draft on my arm which tells me I need t master the embouchure better.

Breathing through the nose to keep an airflow from the throat constant doesn't seem to work for me. Any advice for a numptie greatly received

Your funny micron yes circular breathing is tricky but after doing 1000 times
It's working for me lol.

Peace
Doug

The reason I mentioned to concentrate on the headjoint was because it's my observation that alto and bass flutes tend to be rather spartan affairs to the point where it almost IS just "a body(tm)". But obviously that's just advice to really save you some money. ie - there's not much difference so get plated and cheaper (but still a reputable make) and focus on other things.

I'd personally recommend the Sonare 60 series because it's a lot less money than the Yamaha (or similar "pro" marketed models)and plays fine. No need to pay extra for the 70 series, IMO.

To be honest, though, most instruments these days are so well made that it's usually entirely the player's fault when things don't work at least reasonably well. Case in point - I got my son a bog standard Yamaha 201 flute 7-8 weeks ago that he started playing for the first time. He's already got the first three octaves mostly down pat with a fairly adequate (if mediocre) sound. But he did have lessons and worked at it. Without lessons, he'd be a lot worse off. So get lessons in any case.

The funny thing(and getting back to the main point) is that I can take his same flute and play it and it's "nope, nothing wrong with the instrument mechanically" (along with his jaw usually dropping - heh) It plays astoundingly well for its price. In fact, about the same as my almost 20 year old Yamaha 500 series.(equivalent to today's 600 series and with a custom headjoint as well - kind of sobering, really) *HE* doesn't sound like that, of course, but he's just starting out.

If you are in doubt, have the local flute expert play it for you to get a better idea of what it's capable of in the right hands. Or bring along a friend who plays alto flute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtOn7P5n5bg
Here's a quick demo of a Sonare Alto Flute - I'd rate this as good enough to play live or in a band with for sure - it's a nice solid sound that you can more than live with. Not bad for $1600 or so. (IMO of course)

Thanks for your advice! That's actually the most concise version of circular breathing I've come across yet. I can't wait to try it out now.

I can get the embouchure right - that's not the problem. The problem is - I can't keep it up. I get it pitch perfect for a single phrase, and then I lose it on an octave shift; or on the next breath (when my lips change position), and I have to fumble around for it again. That's basically the kind of inconsistency I'm getting, so that when I'm playing several phrases, I'm very conscious of the hissing or sizzling noise gelling the melody...

As it is, I'm not going to want to stick with a C concert flute. The alto flute isn't exactly that big! I've played recorders that size lol. Funny enough, I'd like a 3 foot Xiao flute, but I think that would be driving a truck on a provisional learner's licence. Thing is - we don't need a licence to play a flute. Only toleration to put up with sounding so awwwwful and patience on the poor listener.

Re; the lip risers etc - the standard one is fine for me. That's all I'm saying. I don't need a gold brocaded one, nor a specialised named head-joint. At the same time, I don't want a piece of ornate silver-plated junk which wheezes more than my own embouchure problems would

A lot of what you say, is actually very helpful, so it does make me happy!

I'm sure I've posted this several times before, here or some other flute forum. I live in an area where there are only 4 possible flute teachers. I've had 1 lesson with one (a saxophone teacher, who teaches flute on the side). That was a marvellous waste of money. The guy taught me nothing about embouchure or blowing. Worse yet, he didn't even notice that my flute keys weren'tt sealing, which is why I couldn't hit the second octave. I choose not to waste money with a teacher of that calibre.

The other 2 teachers have never replied to me, and the last one, was fully booked up until next year. I would've liked lessons, but it isn't going to happen, unless I move.

As it is, I can play simple melodies etc on the alto flute. I'm just not happy with my standard of playing, which I would prefer to be much better.

Will you be my internet teacher lol? I'm not completely unteachable

I'll get a microphone eventually and upload you the kind of disasters I'm playing