I decided to start a separate thread about this topic rather than continue it on the "Your Input" thread:

Pyrioni stated that an advantage of using an open-holed flute rather than close-holed is that it forces you to have correct finger placement. My question is... does finger placement really matter? I never learned about finger positioning (I have never received private lessons and am for the most part self-taught)-- now I am worried that I have developed a bad habit that may affect my playing ability?? Or is it simply an issue of vanity?

I have been playing for about 12 years and have only received one negative comment from a director about my positioning. At the time I just thought she was being a nag (she was not the nicest director).

Please help clear up my confusion! And thanks in advance for input!

Yes and no.
Yes, you must have your fingers very light and fast, not gripping the flute hard, so you can play fast passages without getting a blurry, slurry mess of unidentifiable notes.
But simply using an open-hole flute won't get you there.
Flutes are all pretty much the same size (in terms of the placement of the keys) but hands are not. Forcing a hand to conform to the exact placement of an open-hole key will often simply lead to the student gripping the flute strongly in order to seal the key to sound the note. (This is especially true with the left hand inline G key). This grip is not good for the flute's pads or adjustment, and is especially bad for the person's hands.

There are absolutely some folks who have a lovely light hold of the flute and delightful light, fast fingers on even an inline, open hole flute- but if you look closely at the flutes of many very accomplished players, they have plugged many of the open holes to facilitate proper finger position.

In short, yes, do some work on your finger position- sloppy is NOT good!- but don't go buy an open hole flute to do it.

The open holes on a flute are there for 'special effects' and extended technique such as glissandos and quarter-tones. There are some alternate fingerings for some extreme high notes, and some of them may give you slightly better pitch, but the majority of flute players never use the open holes for any purpose at all.

Hi,

The discussion about fingers, hands and overall positioning when playing the flute is so vast and reach that one could not simply state a padron to what everybody should obey.
It's a fact that open holes HELP the positioning of the fingers, IF that's a discipline you are committed to.
IMHO, what's is really important is the feeling of comfort you develop with your particular position of playing, and mostly if that leads you to have a better sound.
There are of course resources like the Offset-G that may help in some way those who suffer when positioning their left hand, for example. But it's far from being unanimous since it may resolve from one side, not all though. In my case, for example, I do believe open holes are good for my positioning, but Offset-G is really a pain for me. I have really long fingers, that just fit perfectly in an inline mechanism, regardless of being open or close hole. They just sit there right in the middle of the keys. That's MY discipline, and I encourage my flute students to do so as a starting point, but not as a rule. They must search and find their own solution.
So, concerning your worries about a possible bad habit, this will be well signed to you if you have any kind of pain, or if you feel your playing could be better with another positioning.

The flute should be played using the finger pads (the part with the swirled fingerprint). If you tend to play on your finger tips or if you let your fingers hang over the back of the keys, then you have a poor finger position that will inhibit your playing dexterity. If you have good finger positions, then it does not matter whether you play on closed or open holes. With an open hole flute, it FORCES you to have your fingers positioned correctly or you won't be able to cover the holes. Players with very small hands may have difficulty with an open hole flute because their fingers may not be long enough to get good coverage of all the holes - that's why someone invented the plugs for open hole flutes. However, anyone with average or large size hands should have no real difficulty with open holes.

Like Zevang, I have long fingers and play open holes with an inline G. The offset G is not comfortable to me either. Players with smaller hands may benefit from an offset G. You have to choose what fits you best.

I have rather small hands but have played an inline-G open hole flute since my junior year in high school.

Another thing to mention is to not have your fingers flying all over the place. That was mentioned at the Master Class I attended last July as it seems some of the other students had this problem even with unplugged open hole flutes. Their fingers were lifted too high off the keys. Just not very efficient.

Kshel I personally think it's the latter. What's most important is, are you uncomfortable? do you experience any pain? If the answer is no then keep doing what you're doing and don't let anyone tell you otherwise...

It's a fact that open holes HELP the positioning of the fingers, IF that's a discipline you are committed to.

I'm sorry but I would have to respectfully disagree. As Tibbie pointed out, no one person has the same physical makeup.
Maybe you guys don't have a problem but I find low notes to be an absolute nightmare on an open-hole flute. I'm double-jointed so my right hand position is a bit compromised and I have to move my hand ever so slightly to reach the foot joint keys. But on an open-hole flute this isn't possible because my middle and ring finger aren't covering the holes perfectly.
So I advocate closed-hole flutes or the use of plugs. Why make your life so much harder by playing with all holes open?

I fully agree with Tibbiecow's final comment.

A comment was made on a repairers' forum by someone who is a good flute player that if he plays an open hole flute with the finger pressure he wants to use he can feel air leaks between keys & fingers. We spend a long time getting pads to seal perfectly (Harder, hence more expensive for the player, to achieve with open holes) then the player comes along & introduces leaks!

Thank you for all of your opinions! I feel better knowing that there are so many differing opinions on the subject rather than confronting what seemed like a non-issue to me for so many years.

I do not feel any pain or discomfort when playing, and I definitely keep my fingers in the center of the keys. My director from years past tried to teach me that I should almost be able to feel the tip of my fingernail (kept short) on the key, but when I attempted that it felt unnatural and I was constantly concerned that I did not have a good grip on my flute.

Not to spark too much tension in a somewhat-controversial subject, but what exactly is the point of getting an open-holed flute if you are not playing music that requires quarter tones? I realize that it can help with finger positioning, but other than that would any of you argue for an open-holed flute? It seems like a lot of expense for not that many benefits... I always thought that open-holed flutes were so much nicer than closed holed, but a lot of that might have to do with the fact that all the student models I have ever seen are closed holed.

Thoughts?

Maybe you cold do some research for us & try a few closed hole flutes from different makers & their equivalent open hole versions. I for one would be interested in your findings.

Question for OboeLover4Life:

Judging by your forum name, I assume that you also play oboe?

If so, do you play an open hole oboe?

I wouldn't think that playing an open hole flute would present any more difficulties than an oboe (since they have open holes, too).

In the US it is mostly a marketing ploy.
I have heard people in all seriousness state that an open hole flute has better, 'more open' tone. Hogwash for Hon-yockers.

Usually, students get sold on the idea because advanced level players with expensive flutes got the open-holes option, and these (say a Powell, Haynes, Miyazawa, Altus...) sound and play so much better than a Gemeinhardt or Armstrong or Selmer or Bundy student flute. It isn't the open holes (and it isn't the silver or gold!), it's the engineering and the craftsmanship of an artisan flutemaker, as well as the private lessons and extensive practice time of the player that makes the flute sound good.

Uneducated (in flute, at least) band directors in the US contribute to the problem, suggesting that players 'upgrade' to a 'silver head, open hole, B-foot' model. Unfortunately, these are simply embellishments, and if the student has a good student flute in great working order (such as a closed-hole student Yamaha), one of these 'upgrades' can actually be a downgrade. Leather seats and aluminum wheels on a Yugo don't make the car drive better. It's still a Yugo, albeit an embellished one.

There are surely many college/university level flute performance degrees which require a student to learn some Jazz and extended technique, hence a requirement for an open-hole flute. But there is nothing that says the student can't have an outstanding closed hole, C foot handmade flute for most of their work and a Yamaha 300 series with said open holes for the extended technique classes.

The open holes are a status symbol and a marketing ploy for selling flutes for more $$$. The vast majority of these open holes simply won't be used for their intended purpose.
I don't want to take away from those who really WANT to learn these extended techniques, I think that's great.

And I still must respectfully disagree with Zevang (this is most unusual for me!). Men and women have different hand sizes, and flutes don't come in men's and women's models. To say that having the finger centered over the open hole is perfect position can't work, because someone with longer fingers or wider hands will have a different arch to his(/her) fingers, as well as possibly a different angle in the wrists (not to mention arms), to achieve that position- so it can't be the same 'perfect' position for two different people.
I, too have long fingers and narrow hands. My inline G is no problem for me, but covering RH E to get low footjoint notes on an open hole flute makes my hands cramp. That is NOT perfect position, that is ergonomic trouble!
I still call perfect position that which allows light, free fingers (that don't raise up too high or mash down keys) to move fast and close each key with just enough pressure to seal it, and no more.

And I still must respectfully disagree with Zevang (this is most unusual for me!). Men and women have different hand sizes, and flutes don't come in men's and women's models. To say that having the finger centered over the open hole is perfect position can't work, because someone with longer fingers or wider hands will have a different arch to his(/her) fingers, as well as possibly a different angle in the wrists (not to mention arms), to achieve that position- so it can't be the same 'perfect' position for two different people. I, too have long fingers and narrow hands. My inline G is no problem for me, but covering RH E to get low footjoint notes on an open hole flute makes my hands cramp. That is NOT perfect position, that is ergonomic trouble!

I respectfully completely understand your arguments, although I never said anything about having the fingers centered over the open hole as being a perfect position. I did mention that in my particular case, having long fingers, I can play an inline flute with my fingers well positioned over the center of the keys.

It's a fact that open holes HELP the positioning of the fingers, IF that's a discipline you are committed to.

This is what I am referring to, Zevang, and I'll say that for some people the open holes will not actually help the positioning of the fingers, hence the use of key extensions and such.

I'm sorry I misquoted you in my earlier post.

This is what I am referring to, Zevang, and I'll say that for some people the open holes will not actually help the positioning of the fingers, hence the use of key extensions and such.

Now I understand. Sorry for sounding somewhat rude previously. Sometimes it's difficult to express ideas through the internet, imagine then when one use a second language and a mess can be done... :-)

tibbiecow, you are right, "In the US it is mostly a marketing ploy", yes, I think so, in my country if I use closed hole flute, people will come to me and say only students use closed hole flute, you should upgrade to open hole.

Then I went to Japan this summer and played with Japan southern-Japan TV station youth orchestra, all their flutists are using closed holes, and in Japanese local music stores all are closed hole flute (I saw only Trevor James flutes are open hole), all their high end Japanese flutes are also closed holes - Sankyo 301 401 501 Yamahas etc. It seems Japanese don't believe in open hole marketing ploy.

I didn't say open hole flute is better, to be they are the same for sound and tone, I used closed hole flute for 6 years, my teacher never said anything against closed hole flutes (my teachers were professional orchestra players), but I got very very sloppy on finger positions on closed hole flutes, so one of my teachers finally asked me to change to open hole 8 months ago to correct my positions. I have short index fingers, so I use offset-G open flute now. It took only 1 month to correct all my finger positions.

<Added>

(oops, I mean I have short ring fingers)

on closed hole flute, I was playing with RH finger-tips or sometimes joints of fingers, with LH ring finger barely touched the far end of the G key cup, then LH pinky was flying far away from G# lever. Open hole flute now forces me to play with only finger pads and my LH ring finger is back to center and my LH pinky is on top of the G# lever.