[B]The open holes do not affect tone. Block them up and the tone is the same. [/B]

I have to disagree. Now, it may be true that a flute designed as an open holed flute may not sound any better than a flute designed as a closed hole flute.

However, I have an open holed flute and when I take the plugs out and play it as an open holed flute it clearly sounds better than when the plugs are in. And this isn`t a slight change, it is very noticable.

Again, this does not mean that open hole sound better than closed hole. But that an open hole flute (mine at the very least) sound better when played open hole than with the holes stopped up.

Of course there is a subjective nature to this. After all, what is "better"?

I know some flute players with years of experience who insist that open hole does, indeed, sound better. Others insist that they don`t.

And what, exactly, is being compared? Unless you are dealing with non hand made flutes of the same exact model and features with only the keys being different then how can anyone tell? There are so many factors that affect the sound how could anyone determine that it is not the open holes?

I think that in the end each flute has to be looked at on its own. Either it sounds good to the player or it does not. If it sounds good and it has open holes then play on open holes. If it sounds good and it is closed hole then play on closed holes.

But the whole argument over if open holes sound better of if they have no effect is pointless. Either the flute sounds good or it doesn`t.

Cierra, please be carefull what kind of advice that you are giving.
I suggest you play the flute a bit longer and get more under your belt before recommending a no name brand flute.
Open hole, easier? NONSENSE!!!

Tony M, you make a pretty bold claim. It has validity ONLY if somebody else did the putting in and taking out of the plugs, and if you did not know whether the plugs were in or out when you played the instrument. Also, for extra experimental robustness, the comparison should be made by a listener who does not know whether they are in or out.

Unless you did this procedure to to eliminate the subjectivity that human beings are hugely prone to, you tests were meaningless.

I open holes makes a difference, then ponder this.... there are only five holes that are open, so only 5 notes are affected. In a chromatic scale there are 12 notes, That leave 7 notes that receive no benefit from the open holes.

I did not hear you claiming that 5 notes of the scale sounded conspicuously better than the other 7. Strange, that! There certainly seems to be a lot of subjectivity at work here.

We should try to keep a little in touch with reality here.!

thanx for the commenst

It has validity ONLY if somebody else did the putting in and taking out of the plugs, and if you did not know whether the plugs were in or out when you played the instrument.

If I were writing a research paper on the subject then perhaps I would find this necessary. However as I am simply making an observation from my personal experience then I see no need.

It may be my subjective experience, but that does not automatically make it wrong. If you don`t accept that I can hear a difference then so be it. I do hear a difference, and not an insignificant one. If you don`t believe me then fine, it`s no skin off my nose.

Unless you did this procedure to eliminate the subjectivity that human beings are hugely prone to, you tests were meaningless.

To you maybe. But I have been a musician for over 20 years. I have good ears. I know what I hear. Some others may take my experience as a factor and give my words some credence, others may not. Just because it is meaningless to you does not make it meaningless.

I did not hear you claiming that 5 notes of the scale sounded conspicuously better than the other 7. Strange, that!

To be honest I don`t know if that is strange or not. I don`t claim to know anything about flute acoustics and the physics of how a flute works. All I know is what I hear.

There certainly seems to be a lot of subjectivity at work here.

And again, that something is subjective does not mean it is wrong. You can discount what I say because it is my opinion, but then should we never give thought to the opinions of others just because an opinion is, by its very nature, subjective?

I don`t claim that my comments are not based on subjective experiences. I am just relaying what I have heard. And I am not the only one. I know a fair number of musicians who can hear a difference too. If you disagree then fine.

We should try to keep a little in touch with reality here.!

No need to be snotty about it. I am very much in touch with reality. I simply have an opinion that differs from yours. Why the need to try to be condescending to someone just because they have a different experience than you?

I can`t remember who mentioned E mechs above, but they don`t usually cost extra. Just flutes, for example, list Pearl student flutes at an RRP of £459 for both Closed hole/E mech and open hole.

At intermediate level, there is often an extra charge for E mech, but at student level this seems to happen rarely. I would also say that E mechanism is a very useful addition to the flute in order to facilitate the high E.

just my tuppence worth..

it all depends on how old you are: if you`re still in grade school, get a flute in the $800 range with closed holes and no b foot. i personally never liked the in line style, but you may...
if you are going into high school, you will no doubt improove very quickly and will outgrow the $800 flute. i got a $2,300 Pearl brand flute with a 10K mouthpiece, open holes, b foot, split-e, gizmo key, and b to c sharp trill key (forgot the name *hits forehead on desk*).
if you are going into college, you`re on your own cuz i have no idea...i`m not there yet...

i would definately google "flute" and see what you get...
tata for now!
Katherine

On E-mech pricing...

E-mechanism seems to be standard on flutes offered in Europe vs the United States. Flute makers in the US uses the E-mechanisms to command higher pricing...

For example...

The cheapest US Yamaha E mech flute is the Yamaha YFL-574H which sells for around $1800 US. But for as little as $600 you can import a Yamaha E-mech flute (YFL221UK) from Europe.

Yamaha in the US also has flutes that can only be sold in brick and mortar stores and those that can only be sold online. In the brick and mortar dept there is the Allegro series of Yamaha flutes which do offer E-mech, but also command a +200% mark up from their equivalent non-allegro flute (sans e-mech).

Jupiter does not offer E-mech until you get to their DiMedici flutes which start at around $1200 US.

Pearl offers a split E flute for $600, which is a fair price, but $150 more than it`s non E-mech equivalent.

One funny thing to note is that while Gemeinhardt does not offer split-E mech in the US, their flutes in the UK feature the option.

Ah I see. I was, obviously, quoting from a UK catalogue. I`m not up on the differences between US and UK marketing, except to say that I have NEVER met someone who owns a geimenhardt!

Yes Gemeinharts are VERY heavily marketed in the US. I think more so in the past than right now. But it does seem that every music store has an emphasis on them. Also, most of the time school kids begin an instrument by renting (hiring) rather than buying it right off, and many rental level flutes are Gemeinharts.
( I`m never sure if I spell it right, because I personally have never preferred the feel or sound of them for me, and I guess I haven`t bothered to commit the correct spelling to memory.)

It`s like the drug company reps, whichever rep frequents your doctor the most with the free samples(and free lunches for the staff no less), that`s the brand of drug your doctor is most likely to prescribe for you.

We know that good marketing is the key to most purchases -- whether or not they are GOOD purchases...

Tony M, all that I can say is that you have a great imagination.

Again with the condescension? Let me know if you ever decide you want a dialogue rather than just getting catty.

Oh, and I do have a good imagination. I consider it an asset. But I also have good ears. Again, if you don`t believe it I don`t care, but your tone is really not necessary. It is possible to disagree politely.

i suggest that if you can arrange it with the misic store try out a few flutes first then devide what one you like the best

Tony, have you considered this:

With open hole there is a different feel on the metal of the keys. There is also a different feel from the intimacy the finger skin has with the vibrating air pressure within the air column. IN subjective terms, one could describe this as a more `intimate` feel.

Most human beings, no matter what their playing, or any other experience, have considerable difficulty in clearly and fully distinguishing between vibration sensations on the skin and vibration sensations in a particular piece of skin, the ear drum.

Hence enormous opportunity for a player to encounter illusions regarding tone, when comparing open and closed tone holes. I most certainly do not mean this in a derogatory way, just that it is part of being human.

This is why it is necessary to use `double-blind` testing to determine whether there is any REAL difference.

However I in no way intend to condemn any perceptions you may enjoy as a player. All I am suggesting is that they may be the result of subjective influences and illusions, rather than some real phenomenon such as pulling plugs form holes.

Arak,

I don`t deny what you say, and fully admit that it is my personal subjective opinion.

I do appreciate that you can disagree pleasantly. Conversation would be much more pleasant here if people could generally follow suit.

I undersand that there are good arguments aginst my perceptions, yet I do believe that I percieve something. I won`t claim that my perceptins are 100% accurate.

I also admit that my choice in playing open hole had absolutly nothing to do with any improved tone. In fact I agree that overall there is not much, if any difference, between open hole and closed hole flutes.

Thanks for your calm and reasoned response. We can all learn from eachother in an atmosphere of calm and reason.