First of all why should we give a stuff how fast he can play the Rossini. It is good to hear something played fast, but the purpose of classical music is to send a message to the audience. If you want to hear really fast passages, you should find a tape player and press fast forward. The meaning of classical music is not about argueing with other musicians what it is or not.

I think this subject has become extremely funny for a number of reasons. Wild, for someone who seems to revolt against this forum, seems to be posting a fair bit on it. One thinks he`s blowing his own trumpet about his credentials. I bet those orchestras are community ones.

You`ve missed the point entirely, Wild. Maybe you should spend a bit more time concentrating on logic. No-one mentioned `4 bar phrases` nor Mozart`s concerto being written in a certain way, and as for Berlioz, what the???? What has his penchant for opium got to do with the price of eggs? Your arrogance is unbelievable. No-one cares what you know - it doesn`t prove that anyone else knows less than you. It just makes you out to seem that you have no life!!! We all know about history. Its just that noone has mentioned it because it`s not RELEVANT!! The point was is that Charles Neidich has no sense of what is musical and what is self-indulgence - I don`t care how technically brilliant he is, its not the point. I don`t care how fast he can play it because that`d probably make his interpretation even worse.

Noone is claiming to be Sabine Meyer obsessees. In fact, no-one has claimed to be her biggest fans. But she at least has the right idea with THAT PIECE.

The future of clarinet playing looks really dire with people like you around, Wild .... you could play like a beginner for all we know. It seems that the only person that doesn`t know about musicality is you.

Wild, what level do you think I`m at?
I have studied the clarinet at university level.
My current repertoire includes the 1st three Spohr concerti, the Copland and will include the Corigliano as soon as I get time to do the work it deserves. I would hardly call myself the undeveloped beginner that you seem to be making the people here out to be.
And of course I think about how my playing will affect people. I just think that there is more to expression than making people weep. There are many things in music that affect me to the point of tears. On the other hand, there are many things that make me laugh because of their wittiness (the passage in Weber 2 just after the dramatic bit with all the diminished 7ths is one such case. I have spent ages just on that bit working on the lightness needed to bring the effect that passage needs.)
Maybe Mozart did write passages because new sounds had been added to the clarinet. (Would you be able to tell me where you got this information from? If it was from a book, I would be interested in reading it.) As a composer, I can understand this. But composers write music as MUSIC, not as a set of special effects. The "cool new sounds" are incorporated into the musical fabric.

Dmitri
This is said with the utmost respect for you and your obvious musical knowledge and knowledge of the clarinet- I think the comment you made to Bryan about wallowing in the mud with Wild was rather uncalled for.
Do you know who this Wild person reminds me of? A slightly more articulate version of Laura. Do you remember all those arguments we had with her? Wild is just as arrogant, just as immature, and just as unable to take criticism.

Rachel, I will have to agree with you. My comments to Bryan were a bit off color for me. As I recollect, this is the first disagreement I have had with him. So perhaps I did go off the deep end. And yes, I do remember the Laura conversations. Pity.

On a more positive note, Bryan, how did your auditions for the Paris Conservatoire go?

Dmitri
ps. always letting the power of women get to me...

NB- Wild, you never emailed me. Weren`t you going to send me some life alterning email?

Why do I envision all of you speaking with british accents, especially Alyssa and Rachel?

and Dmitri`s accent is sometimes british, sometimes deep southern...

I think that a strong hit of MDMA would help most of you stop taking yourselves so seriously... Sheez, at what point in history did musicians stop acting like musicians and start acting pre-meds and lawyers? "Pity!"

Wild,

British accents? What?! It does so happen that Rachel and I are in the same country - I can`t speak for Rachel`s background but for me, I`ve never even lived in the UK. But in any case, it is both irrelevant and, in the context of what you`re obviously implying, bigoted. I just think that you`re a s**t-stirrer - no-one could be that naive when it comes to understanding what others are trying to say. You just don`t agree with us and you mistake others` opinions as a lack of knowledge - how wrong you are!

And now, just to clarify, Wild: Not one of us has criticised you for admiring Neidich. I too greatly admire his abilities technically as not everyone has that ability - particularly me. You`re entitled to your right to listen to who you want to listen to. Its your money. If you want to spend it in that way, go ahead.
But for you to imply that each and every one of us that disagrees with you is uneducated and musically-inept is totally out of line. I may not be TECHNICALLY superior or even equal to Neidich but that is not to say that I don`t have any musical abilities: like Rachel, I am at a conservatory level, not a high school kid or beginner like you blatantly implied. I`m in the process of working on several works (the Rossini (which is why this discussion particularly interests me), Weber 2, Hindemith and Copland concertos being a few) at present - all of which are not beyond me in any capacity to be performed at an extremely high level both technically AND musically. Now, yes, I may not have made audiences weep yet but I don`t think that you HAVE to in order to be a musician of greatness. But you can still evoke extreme emotion and life and energy without resorting to reducing your audience to tears.

In any case, what we were saying is that Neidich does nothing of that. The only crying I would do is over the total destruction of the MUSIC behind the notes that he has thrust in my face. The fact is, I do not find Neidich`s over-emphasis of his technical ability at all impressive because of the other things he completely disregards. Yes, his technical ability is outstanding. But does he have to shove it in our faces at the expense of the music?

And the references to four-bar phrases, Berlioz`s opium habits, Mozart`s concerto (which, funnily enough, was the subject of the original post) and criticisms of our historical knowledge - of which there is obviously plenty amongst a lot of us on this forum - were completely irrelevant and a mere act of conceited desperation from a person who cannot admit that they may be out of order in insulting others?

Dmitri, please don`t lower yourself to his level by returning his ridiculous banter. Its below you because you`ve proved you actually know what you`re talking about or at least recognise other`s opinions and offer logical argument.

Al

ps. Wild, why are you bothering to respond to these anyway? I thought you weren`t gonna waste another key-stroke on this forum. I have a feeling you`re not as good as you say you are. Have you been laughed off other forums and so come on this one hoping you can mould some poor young beginners?

By the way, I`m sad I missed this argument you had with this Laura person - must have came in too late to this forum. Was it something I would have had fun with? What was it about?

To be honest, I have been a bit of s**t stirrer on this forum. I`m sorry for that. And I have been admittedly taking the frustration that I have with wind players that currently surround me out on all of you--which is wrong, a bit self-absorbed and arrogant. Yes, I will take that. Your tragic flaw, Rachel, Dmitri, and Alyssa, is that you take yourselves and and even music way too seriously. You appear to have no sense of humor at all.

However, the reason why I keep using the matrix metaphors has to do with knowledge. My teachers have included Yehuda Gilad, Tom Martin, Charlie and Ayako Neidich and masterclasses with Larry Combs, Frank Cohen, and so on and so on.... I`ve never met anyone with as much information about the clarinet and music as Charlie. I`m not saying that you are all stupid, but I`m saying that Charlie has more background information than anyone--and this is a statement of fact that you can either accept or not accept. He has a near photographic memory and has read piles of treatises, books, and documents that help him understand music better. He does Shenker(sp!) analysis better than the theory professors from Juilliard do. He has mastered playing the old instruments, so he can learn more about how musicians from Mozart`s and Weber`s time played. He is unplugged--He is the "Neo" of clarinetists--listen to his recordings, it`s like he has super powers. And for those who don`t have those abilities, it threatens your ego. It`s psych 101. As Bryan said, you should buy some of his other recordings. I`ve never heard another Brahms quintet that even approaches his level of expression--and he still isn`t satisfied himself with it, probably.

Neidich has a deeper and more profound knowledge of music than anyone I have ever met. He never even really had a clarinet teacher the way we all do. (never really took lessons after high school) I don`t always understand why Charlie does what he does with music, but I know that it moves me, and I hope that some day I can have that understanding too. "Awe inspiring"--as Dmitri put it, is how I wish I could walk away from every concert.

So yes, when I come across an internet forum of people--who definitely have a lot less information than he does (as do I)--bashing him, it stirs me to anger.

Holy crap. Wild, you and I may have been able to be friends after all! And this may be reconciable! This just goes to show you how pathetic the internet is at judging what we as individuals truly think and how we put those thoughts into words.

I know exactly(i think) what you mean by the matrix. My list of influental teachers at this point does not include the same likeness of yours. But I have had far fewer teachers, in fact only two that have made an impact in my post hs years. Only one of those has name recognition. However, when I think of clarineting today, much of it comes with no point. There are some very average musicians sitting in the orchestral ranks. One I have the biggest beef with is Frank Cohen. He plays out of tune and hides in the orchestra. His predecessor certainly did not do that. Well, technically his predecessor`s predecessor! Needless, I have much respect for the academic advancement Neidich has made for the instrument. Perhaps I am a bit harsh when judging his playing. I have always known him to be a super smart as hell musician. Far superior to most on any given instrument.

I am glad you seem willing to put this behind. I cannot vouch for the two ladies(Rachel and Alyssa), but I am sure they see your point now that you have decided to stop attacking each of our playing ability. I have only performed at Carnegie Hall and in concert with two orchestras, not to mention conducting studio sessions and performing on many HGTV commercials and programs. Albeit, that does not include the performances in Europe. Needless, I think we finally have an understanding, yes?

To Wild. Thank you for finally sorting yourself out. Its so refreshing to finally see an unbiased interesting post from you, Wild. Dmitri, you can speak for me. I agree with you again.

Wild, as for not having a sense of humour, I too enjoy being a bit of a s**t-stirrer at times which is why I got such a kick out of this forum - I found your comments more funny than anything else which is why I even bothered commenting on your posts. I don`t actually take myself seriously at all - which probably vouches for why I am in the process of withdrawing from a clarinet competition as we speak. I play because I love to. Simply that. I don`t profess to be, nor want to be like Neidich or Sabine Meyer or Brymer or anyone else with recording contracts and successful solo careers. I simply love to play and to listen to others play. And if that extends to something more, then that`s just a fantastic bonus. I also have a love of music outside of classical which ranges from cheesy pop to jazz to folk (as long as its done well and I can see the merits of the performance). I just don`t like being criticised for something I`m not. And since you didn`t do that in the last post, I have a lot more respect for you.

Dmitri,
Some of those arguments got quite funny. Some of your comments in particular made me crack up laughing.

Now that Wild is acting like a human being, I will give Richard Stoltzman a bit of credit for what he has done for the clarinet- made people aware of it, and made it a lot more popular than it would have been without him. I still don`t like his playing, though. Some people need to learn the difference between emotion and sentimentality, and between pathos and bathos, I think. I won`t comment on Charles Neidich as I`m not really familiar with his playing- Stoltzman is on my radio a lot more.

Wild- Alyssa, Dmitri and I only appear to take ourselves too seriously when people have hissy fits because we happen to disagree with them. In reasonable discussion, our sense of humour is perfectly intact.

Also (I can`t speak for Dmitri and Alyssa on this), I only take music so seriously because I love music so much. However, I also play for fun. If I didn`t get a LOT of fun out of playing, composing and studying music, I wouldn`t bother putting in all the work I`m doing to try and be a professional.

Alyssa- do a search for Laura`s arguments. I don`t know if they`re still here though. There were a couple of them- one where she got offended because someone disliked the Benny Goodman version of the Mozart concerto, another one where she wouldn`t believe that the Mozart concerto was technically easy but musically difficult, and another one where she thought she knew more than me about the range of the clarinet. That last one got quite annoying, but the others were fun.

Wild- I`m from Australia. Born in New Zealand. Never been to the UK, but am a huge fan of dry British humour.

Wow, feel the love!

Like Wild, I too have studied with Neidich some, and I can also say that he is a true scholar of music. He told me once that he had suspected a wrong note in the Debussey, and so he traveled to Paris to look at the original manuscript. Not many musicians would take the effort to fly half way around the world to investigate a single note.

While I was in Paris I had the oppurtunity to have a single lesson with Guy Deplus. Mr. Deplus expressed to me his respect and admiration for Neidich`s playing. I don`t think you can get a better endorsement than Guy Deplus when it comes to clarinet playing.

Sorry to argue with you guys. To me, this is all just a matter of opinion, and opinions will always differ.

Say, where`s Laura at? I`d much rather argue with someone that thinks Mars is the hardest piece of all time.