Here you can hear some uses of the slide trumpet, that may be the slide trumpet of the future.... :-)

http://www.lucabonvini.net/mystictrumpeter

this one is not a soprano trombone because is played with a Bach 3C in a Bach leadpipe 25 and has a doc severinsen bell, the only mistery is the slide but the sound is actually very close to the trumpet sound, and improving.

Best wishes,

Luca Bonvini

First off, Luca, good job on your recording. Really nice playing, too. Love your tone.

Not to argue, but your instrument is a soprano trombone. The bell, lead-pipe and mouthpiece do not make your instrument a "slide trumpet".

All trombones have a hidden conical lead-pipe. You`d need a cutaway view to see it, but rest assured, it`s there. In fact, some companies, like Edwards, offer horns that come with extra lead pipes.

Conn and Getzen both made horns they called "slide trumpets" and "slide cornets". The reason? One was played with a cornet mouthpiece and had a cornet lead-pipe, and the other was played with a trumpet mouthpiece and had a trumpet lead-pipe. However, these terms are erronious. Both versions are soprano trombones.

Here is the difference between the soprano trombone and the slide trumpet:

Circa 1450, the first trombone (posaune, sackbut) got made. It was an adaptation of the bass slide trumpet.

To have an understanding of what was happening here, you first have to know what a slide trumpet is.

A slide trumpet is a Baroque instrument that comes with a short slide like a miniature trombone slide. It is used, not to play scales like a trombone, but to move the partials down a semitone.

Remember, a natural trumpet has lots of tubing, and in the playing range, the partials are close together. By having this little slide that you can push in and pull out a semitone, by working back and forth you can play a complete chromatic scale.

This is the same principle that`s used by the chromatic harmonica. If you blow through a C chromatic harmonica, you get the C scale. Push the button, and the carriage moves over, uncovering a whole new set of holes. I can`t remember which way it goes, offhand, but pushing the button either gives you C# or B. But you get the idea. By working back and forth between the keys, you can play chromatic music.

Anyway, the trombone is not like this. The slide gives you a complete chromatic scale, plus alternate positions, by giving you (on average) seven positions.

Trombone means literally "big trumpet", and the bore-profile of a trombone is very similar to a real trumpet.

The modern "trumpets" such as the Bach Stradivarius, are not trumpets. They`re actually a type of cornet that first began appearing in the 1880`s, in A, Bb and C. What they really are is a cornet designed to imitate the sound of a real trumpet.

Real trumpets are the low F contra-alto instrument. Modern "trumpets" have around 35% cylindrical tubing to around 65% conical. Real trumpets have around 64% cylindrical tubing to around 35% conical.

This ratio is important for two reasons:

1) the bass slide trumpet is the predecessor of the trombone.

2) the modern trombone and real trumpet has the same ratio of cylindrical to conical tubing. These attributes appear also in the soprano trombone. There is no difference in design between a soprano and/or any other trombone.

Low F contra-alto trumpets (not to be mistaken for the low F contralto, which is a different instrument altogether) are still made by Egger, Dotzauer, Laetzsch, and several other companies.

These horns are important when it comes to comparing to trombones, because of the way they perform. They (especially the rotary-valve models) do not play like the modern "trumpet". If you happen to play both contra-alto and trombone, or if you play in an organisation that uses both, you can feel and/or hear that these instruments are related.

Phil,
Just wondering how your re-education was coming. I just picked up a jupiter, and I`m looking forward to mastering it. What used to be simple (like scales) are sounding sloppy, but I`m slowly getting the hang of it.

I hear you, its weird starting off a begginer again. Its comming along well. Finally figureing out the positions. I find it difficult to hit the exact note right away, i kinda need to slide into it until my ear finds the note. They are super light too eh! defiantly a different feel!

how are you comming along?

I`m sliding around alot too. I`m slowly going through old music, and butchering it with this new horn. I`m getting better, and the wife hasn`t left me yet, so it`s all good.

Heh. Now you know how a trombone player feels.

What you`ll find (as every trombone player does) is that you`ll favour a certain range for fast playing. Trombone players who go for speed tend to use the bottom octave sparingly, and then just to prove they can do it.

I was wondering how this would affect trumpet players, though. Trumpet is a fast instrument, and since speed is rarely a consideration, the soprano trombone experience (in my opinion) really rubs your nose in it. I think because trumpet players so take easy speed for granted, they tend to react strongly to the sudden lack of it. I imagine it must be like turning off the highway and trying to drive on a side road on a flat tyre.

If you guys want a good intonation fix, I would recommend the major scales in broken thirds, one octave, starting in concert F (your low G), going through the cycle of fifths, not up chromatically a semitone at a time. It`s better to use the cycle of fifths because you get patterns that generally repeat. Concert F (your low G), for example, begins in 6th position. Then concert C (your D scale) begins in 6th position. And so on.

You guys should pride yourselves that you can do a few things that the lower trombone players can`t do. For example, being sure to lock the slide, put the index finger of your dominant hand against the inside of the bell-bow, let the instrument hang from your finger, and then (here comes the fun part) twirl the instrument around on your finger. If the slide comes unlocked someone may lose an eye, but as I say, you can`t do this trick with the lower trombones, except for some really, really old ones that don`t have a tuning slide at the bell bow, and they`re danged heavy.

Disclaimer: I can not be held responsible for any damaged, broken or lost instruments.

Another thing that really works for intonation is to play with other people and/or recordings as much as possible. Because of the range of the soprano trombone, sour notes tend to stand out more than they do with lower instruments. I found this out the hard way when I took my soprano along to a community band I play in and played in a trumpet section. I thought for sure I was playing perfectly in tune, until I found myself having to work very hard to blend in with a section. It didn`t take long to get the old ear adjusted, but the experience was invaluable.

Are any of you guys familiar with Moravian trombone choir music? All of you guys learning the soprano- I highly recommend getting a set of these SATB books. They`re only around $5 each, $20 for the set of four. Put together a little group of SATB, and go at it. There are a couple hundred tunes in these books. It`s mostly hymns, with a few Christmas carols and odds and sods, but hymns, technically speaking, are an excellent workout for tone and intonation.

These books are part books in the general keys, so you aren`t restricted to just trombones, but it`s nice to hear four in SATB. If you`re stuck for an alto trombone player, a tenor player with good range should be able to handle the part, assuming he can transpose.

Another excellent source, if you have a buddy who also plays soprano, is brass quartets, in this case, ideally SSAT (soprano, soprano, alto, tenor). There are oodles of free public domain quartets out there. One of the best resources is that of Jay Lichtmann. Just go to any site that gives away his arrangements for free and you`ll find enough repertoire to keep you going for a long time.

BTW- those of you who haven`t been to Luca`s site and heard his playing are really missing out on something. In my opinion, he`s one of the best soprano trombonists around right now.

Thank you for the compliment Greg, I`m just back from California and there Dick Akright just made for me a new slide adapting a jupiter slide. It works great and now it is really possible to `slide`.
Your suggestions about learning positions sounds very good and I suggest to follow them. Anyway I tried a couple of soprano trombones in San Francisco and they really don`t have the typical trumpet response and sound that the settings of my instrument allows.
Anyway don`t forget that I come from the trombone and `only` had to develope trumpet chops....and I have a long way to go still!
Greetings

I just bought an old contra-alto trumpet- an old Stowasser in low F. It has a lovely teutonic sound, much more body than the Bb. They sound best in threes, with two contra-altos and one modern trumpet in Bb or C as the highest sounding voice. The sound is very dramatic, dark and Gothic.

Amati is now making a cheap low Eb trumpet, at $450 US. I`m not sure if it`s a contra-alto or a contralto-contra-alto hybrid. It has Perinet valves instead of rotary, and I can`t tell from the photo whether it does or doesn`t have a lead-pipe. If it does, then it will be a hybrid like the old Odinas.

The Amatis are a crap-shoot. Some of their horns, like their alto trombone, are top-notch. Others are really student-model instruments.

Have any of you guys tried the Eb soprano and/or Bb piccolo trombones?

Thein makes both, and being Thein I`m sure they`re very well-made.

I have never heard or tried either, and was wondering if they`re really playable, or if they`re just expensive and well-made toys.

Although Thein lists the Eb soprano, they don`t post a picture of it, so I assume it`s a production-on-demand-only instrument.

I`m saving up to have a replacement made for my ancient G alto trombone. This horn is also refered to as a soprano or contralto.

My G alto was played with a mouthpiece like a large Eb tenor horn mouthpiece, not a trombone mouthpiece. Unlike the regular soprano in Bb, it sounded like a regular trombone, and blended beautifully with the other members of the trombone family. It had about a .450 bore and a 6 1/2" bell.

Sadly, the metal perished to the point where it was crystalising and flaking (I think it was a bad nickel-silver alloy), and all the seams were splitting. I sold it to a collector, who was very angry with me for repeatedly patching the horn in a vain attempt to keep it in playing condition.

You used to see these horns from time to time, but I`m now unable to find a new one anywhere, although mine was very old (early 19th century), and all the ones I used to see were likewise very old, often used as wall-hangers or curiosities in music stores.

I wish someone would put them back into production (for selfish reasons. It would be a heck of a lot cheaper than having a one-off made). They`d be a good second instrument, especially for Eb tenor horn players, as are the contralto trumpet and tenor cor (also called an alto horn- looks like a mellophone but is a professional instrument, usually in the key of Eb), all of which use the same mouthpiece. For the Eb tenor horn player, it would be a good alternative to the F or Eb alto trombone, which uses a trombone mouthpiece.

You guys are defaintly over my head, in terms of skill and knowledge with the slide trumpet/soprano trombone. I myself am just a university student (not a music major) who plays the trumpet and picked up a soprano trombone to learn. I appreciate all your insights guys and pointers. Anything you can advise me to do, it would be greatly appreciated. I feel like i have been demoted back to grade 9 using this new instrument, compared to my haven the trumpet. Thanks again guys

I mentioned a few exercises for soprano trombone, Phil, which you might find helpful.

Broken thirds for one octave are a very good way to get the slide under control, being sure to go throught the cycle of fifths, not up chromatically by semitone.

Part of the reason this works is that much of the slide patterns are almost duplicated at the fifth. For example:

Start your cycle from low concert F. Being a trumpet player, you will probably thing of this as low G, 6th position.

The next interval in the cycle of fifths will start you off on concert C, or low D, 6th position.

You`ll notice right away the similarities and differences of each coincident pairing.

Getting around linerarly (from scalar note to note) is something you should pick up from a trombone teacher. There are a number of tricks to getting around on the instrument that only a trombone player can show you.

You may find the slide an awkward impediment at first, but keep in mind that it is also the key to a whole range of expression you can`t get on a trumpet.

The best analogy I can think of is the difference between playing a fretless bass and a fretted bass. Frets limit your expression, removing the frets means that there are no barriers in the way of expressing yourself. But you`re not going to be able to play with expression at first. In fact, you`re going to be fighting with the instrument just to play it in tune. From there, it`s all patience and hard work.

Yes, to continue with Greg analogy: can you imagine a fretted modern violin (leave out soprano gambas for now)? I considered trombone as an air-cello and slide trumpet (oops, soprano trombone) as an air-violin. Once you use the air in the right way it is great to play the air-violin. Of course in the beginning the violin doesn`t sound so god for a while, while the cello is less disturbing. Also as it is possible to play miniature tuning miracles with such small proportions as in a violin it should be also possible to get to perfection with the small positions of the slide trumpet (and move much faster than a trombone even in the lower register...as far as we use the air in the right way to sustain the whole work. In relation to the slide I consider myself as a cello player that has switched to violin. A trumpet player will be like a mandolin (or soprano gamba) player switching to violin, or something like that (of course you Don`t want to start on a fretless mandolin :-) (or may be it exists?), but you can play incredible `pizzicato` passages in tune on a modern violin after a while. All this to encourage Phil and other novise soprano trombone players. Best to all!

Actually, Luka, it`s a good thing you mentioned that the soprano trombone is a (potentially) fast instrument. Listen to some recordings of virtuoso solo trombonists and you`ll notice right away that trombone players have come up with endless means and ways to play fast passages. Then, consider how comparatively small, slight and short the soprano slide is, and then maybe you`ll form some idea of the true potential of this badly neglected instrument.

Here`s an exercise I created for building blistering speed, and good tonguing, intonation, phrasing, dynamics, breath control and endurance:

[You`ll have to take this little template and transpose it 12 times and arrange it into the cycle of 5ths, starting on low concert F (or your low G, if you`re thinking trumpet-ese) G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#, G# (Ab), Eb, Bb, F, C]

The template form (the bit that must be transposed) begins on middle C for simplicity, and goes:

up- C C# D D#, D D# E F, E F F# G, G# A A# B
down- C B Bb A, Bb A Ab G, Ab G Gb F, E Eb D Db

Start off on big legato quarter notes and go through the whole cycle of 5ths starting from low concert F (trumpet low G). Next time try, maybe, 8ths staccato.

Anyway, take all your weak points and build up your own study from this, taking it from slow to as fast and furious as you can put out. And to finish up, take them up an octave and work on your second-octave positions and alternate slide positions.

And don`t neglect going through at least once doing double and triple tonguing. The triple tonging especially will give you an excellent workout because the tonquing is asynchronous to the meter.

I designed this exercise for valved and keyed brasswinds, and have recently found it beneficial for slide-practice.

I`ve noticed that a lot of brasswind players are downright bad at tonguing these days, and most of the reason is that tonguing isn`t taught in a very organised manner. So here`s another useful exercise I wrote:

Playing the Bb concert (trumpet C) scale from low C, up an octave and down again; don`t repeat the top C:

1st time through- MM = 60


1st bit- eight notes x 8 each note

2nd bit- two sixteenths, one eight note x 2, going du-gu-du, du-gu-du (hard, bouncy, percussive, but rolling)

3rd bit- three sixteenths triplet, one eight note x 2, going du-du-gu du, du-du-gu du (again- hard, bouncy, percussive- eventually your tongue should literally bang out the notes like a fast-action hammer)

4th bit- four thirty-second notes, one eight note x 2, going du-gu-du-gu du, du-gu-du-gu du

5th bit- five sixteenths in 3 + 2 (triple tongue, double tongue, going du-du-gu-du-gu) pattern up and down, then again in 2 + 3 pattern up and down (double tongue, triple tongue, going du-gu-du-du-gu)

6th bit- two sixteenth triplets, next note three double sixteenths, going du-du-gu du-du-gu, du-gu du-gu du-gu, simile

7th bit- three sixteenths, then two and two sixteenths, going du-du-gu du-gu du-gu, seven sixteenths like that per note

8th and last bit- three sixteenths times two, plus two sixteenths, going du-du-gu du-du-gu du-gu

Do this one daily, going for a nice rolling tonguing sound, and as much speed as possible.

However- also go far a hard, percussive sound, and develop it well.

It is a truism these days that the tongue should gently interrupt the air-flow, but this assertion is only good for solo playing. It is pure baloney for sectional playing, where everything you do, you must do more of- louder, more clearly defined, sharper of timbre, etc., or else everything will turn to mush.

You should be as capable of gradations of tonguing from legato to a metallic, rivetting-gun like percussive style.

Many aspiring brass musicians get nailed on this matter, which today is relegated to being the least of their concerns- until it is demanded of them and they can`t produce! I`ve seen too many otherwise very good players experience a crushing embarrassment in these situations. Do this tonguing excercise religiously, and if you`re a trumpet player, you`ll be able to sight-read Stravinsky`s l`Histoire du Soldat without tripping over those 5`s. And if you`re ever called upon to play a vigorous Latin piece in fast, percussive, triplet-triplet-doublet patterns, you won`t even blink.

Also- getting comfortable tonguing these odd-meter patterns allows you to play through fast but broken passages without having to go through the piece and figure out and break down the tonguing patterns. For example, if you come to a sixteenth rest followed by five sixteenths, then merely use the alternate 5 pattern, which works also to this purpose.

To that end, I created that exercise primarily to make sight-reading easier when you have to tongue in fast, complex passages.

A note about slide positions:

For you trumpet players who haven`t yet figured out all your slide positions, here is an easy method:

You probably are unaware of this, but like the trombone, the trumpet is a 7-position instrument. Each of the seven positions corresponds exactly.

Ignoring that the trombone is a non-transposing instrument (because I`m assuming that you`re going to approach playing the soprano trombone as a transposing Bb instrument like the trumpet), what I`m about to post is the trombone in Bb as a transposing instrument like the trumpet.

First off, here is a table of the positions as played on trumpet:

Position 1 = open
Position 2 = 2nd valve
Position 3 = 1st valve
Position 4 = 1st & 2nd valves
Position 5 = 2nd & 3rd valves
Position 6 = 1st & 3rd valves
Position 7 = 1st, 2nd & 3rd valves

Each of these positions corresponds exactly to the trombone.

Here is how they stack up, note-wise:

Starting from low F# (usually low E, but remember, we`re treating the trombone as a transposing instrument like the trumpet, here:

Trumpet Trombone

Low F#: 1-2-3 7th position
G 1 & 3 6th position
Ab 2 & 3 5th position
A 1 & 2 4th position
Bb 1 3rd position
B 2 2nd position
C 0 1st position
C# 1-2-3 7th position
D 1 & 3 6th position
Eb 2 & 3 5th position
E 1 & 2 4th position
F 1 3rd position
F# 2 2rd position
G 0 1st position
Ab 2 & 3 5th position
A 1 & 2 4th position
Bb 1 3rd position
B 2 2nd position
C 0 1st position
C# 1 & 2 4th position
D 1 3rd position
Eb 2 2nd position
E 0 1st position
F 1 1st position
F# 2 2nd position
G 0 1st position
Ab 2 & 3 5th position
A 1 & 2 4th position
Bb 1 3rd position
B 2 2nd position
High C 0 1st position

This does not include alternate positions, but the rule of using alternate positions on a trombone is very simple:

As often as you can, keep the slide going in one direction.