I have read in this forum how some people `hate` the scale of a certain highly reputable brand of flute.

As a possible explanation, I offer the following that I wrote in a clarinet forum on the same topic:

Is it not possible....

Player A has played flute X for a very long time, and adapting to its idiosyncrasies has become rather automatic. The player no longer realises he is doing it.

Then Player A tests flute Y, using the same automatic adjustments that he used for flute X. Even if flute Y were inherently beautifully in tune, player A will declare flute Y to be out of tune.

Likewise player B, who has played flute Y for many years, and then tests flute X.

Another related issue:

A good flute is designed to be in tune in a certain set of conditions:
- a certain pulling out of the head
- a certain volume of playing
- a certain lip covering the embouchure hole
- a certain angle of blowing
- a certain airstream speed created by a a certain air pressure from the lungs and certain lip aperture size and length
- a certain air temperature
- a certain air pressure - height above sea level.
- a certain humidity.

...And probably quite a few others that I`ve missed.

The tuning of a flute incorporates a lot of compromises, and as any one of these parameters changes, the tuning is likely to change, and the player must compensate.

No manufacturer specifies all the parameters that their flute was designed for, that would be necessary to get the best tuning of that flute.

So it really is up to the player to be versatile enough to find the parameters that get the tuning right.

A good example is on piccolo, where a very small lip covering of the embouchure hole results in a VERY different tuning of a scale, than if the lip covers a LOT of the embouchure hole. The player has to adjust this parameter to play the piccolo how the acoustic designer intended, before it will play in tune.

Of course, once the player has adjusted the parameters to get the tuning good for any particular instrument, and got USED to these parameters, THEN he/she can decide whether or not he/she accepts those parameters as comfortable.

Just because SOME players find discomfort adjusting for a certain brand does not mean that the tuning of that brand is fundamentally flawed. It may say nothing more than that this maker`s set of design parameters for tuning do not suit this particular player.

Some flutes certain lips, blowing strength, style of playing, etc better than others.

All this is well demonstrated when there are two players playing in tune together on the same model of flute. One has the head pushed almost right in, while the other has it pulled out 15 mm.

Theoretically one of them should be way out of tune in their scale. But the players have obviously adapted to using their own particular set of parameters to make the tuning work.

I`m in pretty much agreement.
One can`t really imagine a bad flute scale until they`ve played on an earlier flute such as a Traverso reproduction. They were inherently flawed but in those days the performers used their ears to compensate.

The tuning may not be the most important issue in choosing a flute if it`s not too far off. The tone quality may be a bigger factor.

I do think that in your last example the two players may ultimately have a difficult time playing in tune throughout inspite of their best efforts since all of those factors, including the headjoint location can make a big impact on the flute`s scale/intervalic tuning.
They may come close to great intonation but it may not be as refined as it could have been.
~Bilbo

Some scales work for others, as some do not. As simple as that.

....and some people unintentionally use intonation as a tone color tool.

~Bilbo

I think that some flutes may just be flawed. Look at Gemeinhardt and the scale that they use. It is horrible.
I also would like to see Yamaha improve their scale. They run so sharp in the upper octave and then and flat in the lower. That of course it by nature, the way of the flute, but with some brands it is just really bad. Yamaha and Gemeinhardt being one of them.

Maybe the player has just a tiny bit to do with the intonation?

Not passing JUDGMENT on the player, but just suggesting that the manner in which some players play, may not be the way that a certain flute was designed to be player, such that the player INTRODUCES the intonation problem, much as my last long post described.

The enormous R&D resources that Yamaha has and uses, are not likely to produce an instrument that is fundamentally way out of tune. For that to happen, Yamaha would have to have done it on purpose!

Just a suggestion - perhaps the Yamaha you tried had the crown cork well out of position.

I don`t have a problem with Yamaha myself.

No, I have tried MANY Yamaha flutes, so I can make a fair judgement. Some flutes just run more sharp than others.

I think that he was directing the question to me, KC.
I have also tried many Yamaha flutes to know.

Arak, i don`t see why you`re trying to make it seem like Yamaha flutes are "perfect" and everything about them is flawless. It depends on the player whether they like the intonation, sound, etc. on the flute. Just because you like one certain flute doesn`t mean everyone else has to like it too, people have their own opinions.

Lol! Amen to that Scott!!!

Yamaha flutes are not perfect.

NO flute is perfect.

Yes, some flutes suit some players more than others, depending on what manner of playing any particular flute was designed for.

That does NOT mean that there is something inherently wrong with the flute that does not suit a particular person or persons in this VERY small forum.

I am quite sure, that for every one of the 3 (?) people here rubbishing Yamaha intonation, there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of players VERY pleased with the intonation of their Yamaha flutes.

I have no intention to elevate Yamaha above other top flutes - I prefer others myself - but I do try to keep balance here when a very reputable brand is bad-mouthed - usually by only a very small number of very vociferous people.

I still think that the scale on them suck! It is so odd that I run into so many others that feel the same way. Hmm....

The problem is that their scale is an improvement over older scale designs and current instrument maker`s scale designs who haven`t bother to update their instruments since implementing the Boehm schema which goes back to the 20`s ----1820`s that is.

Some may not be able to adjust to the Yamaha scale because they are not aware of the specific way that these instruments need to be played based on their higher tuning setup.

Some practice their tone/tuning production regularly enough so that generally any reasonably priced and well maintainted flute would most always sound in tune throughout it`s complete range.

Others may be playing on the extreme top of the line instruments and any step `down` may make them uneasy about their tuning or tone. Their are many factors involved in a person`s instrument choice. This may include durability of the mechanics, tone projection, acceptance by a repair tech or band director. I recall an anecdote where a performer won a seat in a major symphony orch buy only on the condition that they went out, bought and performed on a Powell. This may be an agreeabe condition to that performer who could now afford to buy that level of an instrument in their first quarter year of that position but certainly not acceptable to the mom who is starting her `precious` out in the band and is not sure whether or not they are going to like it.

I think that Yamahas are `acceptable` because they do play reasonably well in tune throughout the range if handled properly, have a respectable tone quality and are durable enough for younger players.

~Bilbo