Re: "The problem is not Ebay, it is the ignorance of the people who purchase instruments without knowledge of the flute, and the ignorance of people who sell in mass and really have no idea what they are selling."

Ebay is a problem as well in and of itself. PayPal is owned by Ebay; it`s one company. It`s completely unresponsive and arrogant, and because it`s so massive and incredibly rich it feels it can act with utter impunity.

If I can find the paper I would be happy to post it. It really was several years ago when I wrote it. I`ll have to dig around at home and see!

Thanks! That would be great.

We could have an entire forum solely dedicated to discussing Ebay`s business ethics. I looked up Ebay`s user agreement and they say that it is against their policy to "post false, inaccurate, misleading, defamatory, or libelous content," (http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html)

However, in their section about liability they state "You will not hold eBay responsible for other users` actions or inactions, including things they post. You acknowledge that we are not a traditional auctioneer. Instead, the Site is a venue to allow anyone to offer, sell, and buy just about anything, at anytime, from anywhere, in a variety of pricing formats and venues, such as stores, fixed price formats and auction-style formats. We are not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers. We have no control over and do not guarantee the quality, safety or legality of items advertised, the truth or accuracy of listings, the ability of sellers to sell items, the ability of buyers to pay for items, or that a buyer or seller will actually complete a transaction. "

So it really is the duty of the buyer to research the item that they wish to purchase.

I know this is an old post but I think it still needs responding to.

Just for a moment, pretend with me. You buy a secondhand car from a private seller through a local newspaper. A few weeks later, you find that the seller had hidden the nasty oil leak that will costs hundreds to fix by having the engine steam-cleaned. Should the newspaper be held accountable for allowing the seller to run the ad?

Likewise, eBay can't be held accountable for sellers listings. They say in the Terms that they won't be held responsible for seller's postings but the part of the Terms posted here doesn't say anything about what eBay will do about problems that come to their attention. In fact, I don't think the Terms say anything about what action eBay takes when problems with sellers are found. What happens is that eBay investigates and if they believe the seller to be in the wrong, will either suspend or ban them. This is better protection than buying through a newspaper.

They also provide tools such as the feedback system which is buyers and sellers posting comments on the other party during the transaction. It's not unusual for people to also post comments concerning the item which is another source of information when thinking about buying an item.

QUOTE: "Ebay is a problem as well in and of itself. PayPal is owned by Ebay; it`s one company. It`s completely unresponsive and arrogant, and because it`s so massive and incredibly rich it feels it can act with utter impunity."

As an eBay member for about the last 4-5 years, I've never found eBay to be arrogant or unresponsive. I find they answer quite quickly and informatively. Correct, PayPal merged with eBay a few years ago and I have no problems with them either.

Although eBay don't generally post guides about anything other than using eBay, another tool which they supply is the ability for members to post guides for buyers so yes, a guide on what to look for can be posted by a member - go for it when you find your paper. Links to relevant guides are automatically placed next to lists of found items. I suggest you keep the title short and clear such as "Flute buying tips" or something similar. I'm not sure if you can post pictures for a guide but you can always include a link to a picture of a correctly assembled flute and make that one of the points in your guide, rather than having an unwieldy heading. Bear in mind though, the person responsible for listing the instrument may be an office clerk who knows nothing about
flutes other than how to list them on eBay!

There are some good instruments listed on eBay coming out of China and India now which are comparable to instruments of a much higher cost. We and friends have bought at least 7 instruments between us through eBay and been satisfied with them all. Although most have been from private individuals selling known-brand instruments, at least one of them was an unknown brand that came out of India and we are quite satisfied with the quality for the price we paid. We used the "Buyer Beware" principle and investigated the seller's huge feedback which was almost all positive and contained many references to satisfaction with the quality of the instruments.

QUOTE: "The seller also claims that he is a professional jazz player and did recordings on this nickel plate sky flute. Lol!"

None of this appears to be in the listing and the only revision to it is the shipping terms.

Also, it has been commented here that Brook Mays never mentioned the Sky company by name but reading the article shows that they did. More quotes from the article:

"The trumpet demonstration was performed by the director of the Boston University Music Organizations, Chris Parks, who tested several First Act instruments for more than a year with his students."

"Bromberg said the strongly worded alert, which named First Act, is baseless." (Emphasis mine.)

"The plaintiffs put on music experts who testified that the instruments were of good quality and held up fine during band seasons."


QUOTE: "The problem is not Ebay, it is the ignorance of the people who purchase instruments without knowledge of the flute, and the ignorance of people who sell in mass and really have no idea what they are selling."

QUOTE: "So it really is the duty of the buyer to research the item that they wish to purchase."

Precisely! As we were taught as 14-year-olds in school: "Caveat Emptor" ("Let the buyer beware.")

QUOTE: "The seller also claims that he is a professional jazz player and did recordings on this nickel plate sky flute. Lol!" None of this appears to be in the listing and the only revision to it is the shipping terms.

I never said that it was. I had spoken through email with the seller at the time.

hey kara its josh from ages ago. So so sorry for what i put. so cringing now lol!!! Immatured a lot now realising how stupid i was (regarding u and patrick and going on about chets.
Could you please forgive me and also i would love to know how i could delete what i wrote
thansks Josh

typing error. i meant iv matured a lot lol
josh

I would not call Paypal arrogant, because it is practically 100% virtual and computers cannot be arrogant (at least for the time being), just stupid.

Once I had a problem with an item I had not received (a Hongkong Chinese vendor, BTW) and claimed to Paypal. It was a sad experience, their computer handles almost everything there and it is not really so smart as it should be for such a responsibility. It was (and is) almost impossible to talk to any human there.

I eventually got my money back, after 6 months of mails and letters to anybody I could imagine that could be involved. (Ebay USA, Ebay Europe, Paypal, Google). But the sad taste remained for a long time.

On the another hand, I have made some other 10 transactions on Ebay and with that unique exception, all went quite well.

IMO Ebay+Paypal is a system that works satisfactorily, just with a certain additional degree of risk not present in normal transactions. But when something goes wrong, well, anything can happen.

So all the care (and tons of intuition) must be provided by the buyer. The money paid must be always within the range of what one can afford risking, as it is a kind of Lottery, just with more numbers to win than the normal one.

It is also a source for very unusual and rare items, planet wide, at all levels of (i)legality and for this reasons I always feel a certain thrill searching and buying there.

But not a good place to buy expensive flutes (or cars, or whatever that normally requires personal inspection and testing prior to buying).

It would be nice if they had a quailty control person that could check on listings or respond to knowledgeable people giving them warnings about less than honest listings. It is what it is though. An online lawn sale. I think a huge problem lies with society itself. Our society is all about NOW. Everyone is looking for that quick good deal that they don't bother to do actual research first because that takes time.

Good deals CAN be found but only if you realize what an item is worth and not go over that bid amount. The other problem with ebay is that is is similar to gambling. "I'm going to WIN this item." No, you are going to BUY this item IF you outbid (pay more) than the other guy. It is a competitive lawn sale which works to drive up prices. People get caught up and forget that. (it is also like gambling because you are taking another persons word on the state of the item)

It is alot like pet stores. People see something and want it now so they buy it. But nowadays only the uneducated buy without research. (or get puppies from pet stores but that is another topic)

I have bought, and sold, on eBay a little bit. I find it a great surce for hard-to-find items, such as an older, out-of-production china pattern, model horses, etc.

Caveat Emptor is definitely the only way to navigate this huge 'Lawn Sale' and come out wallet, and nerves, intact.

Good quality flutes at a great price are unfortunately the exception to each flute listing. So how to go about it? Pick a brand and model, and know what it costs, used, in overhauled/perfect condition from a local source. Then look at the particular listings of that instrument: Does the seller have very good or excellent feedback? Most important is to determine how this seller resolves a conflict- with spite or with professionalism? Is a return, within 3, 5 or 7 days of receipt acceptable to the seller? (Buy only from one of these listings.) If the price difference between your high bid and a complete overhaul makes the purchase reasonable, have the instrument sent DIRECTLY to your flute technician. He can, upon receipt, look it over and estimate costs to get it into playing condition. If it's a no-go, or it really stinks, he can send it back right away. Otherwise, he could fix it so that you can play test it, or your teacher can play-test it. At this point, if you don't like it, you can now re-list it on eBay and sell it, or there may be another student locally whom it suits. You won't likely get all of your money back, but many times the prices on eBay are so cheap in some cases that there ARE opportunities. The trick is to avoid the crap.

By the way, my flute tech is happy to receive the instruments an inspect them for me. He also appreciates the business when he has a flute to rebuild, or even just replace a couple of pads and oil and adjust. A different tech may not feel that way, so you would have to find someone like this.

I bought my handmade, soldered tone-hole Yamaha 881 off eBay. It was a really good deal because it had a C-footjoint and was bypassed by a LOT of people. It DID have a problem, though- a poorly cut headjoint- which I replaced.

You must always ask yourself the question of what you will do with the item if it doesn't suit you when it arrives!

Also, the biggest problem with the feedback on eBay is that it is supposed to tell you if the item you received was the item described, if it shipped promptly and arrived well wrapped, etc. Usually you leave feedback within 2 or 3 days, and most novice instrument buyers don't know they have received a 'toy' flute in that period of time- and even if they do, they really HAVE received the described item, and promptly, so they really have little basis for complaint.

First Act wins $20 million law suit and 6 months later Brook Mays files bankruptcy...

I agree with most of the posts here. I've successfully made some very nice purchases off eBay without any trouble at all, but I do my research, know what items are worth in their various states of repair, and what it might cost to have them restored. Even instrument-wise I've gotten some great deals...A Yamaha YPC-32 picc for $385 that lasted me 8 years with very little maintainance, a Db piccolo for what amounted to $400 after necessary repairs, and has seen some action since then, and most recently a beautiful Eb flute for $600 (a similar instrument in comparable condition is selling on Fluteworld for $1300), and I suffered none of the ill effects of eBay. It's all about knowing what you're buying, and having the will power and patience to pass up those auctions that just don't make financial sense. As Jose Luis said, you must always be sure that prosepective purchases are within your ability to afford, just in case something should go wrong, but with the appropriate knowledge and research, you can find some really excellent deals.

Marie, if you want a heads up on a less then honest listing, take a look at this one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/FLUTE-B-FOOT-PRO-ROSEGOLD-CROSS-ENGRAVED-FRENCH-CUP_W0QQitemZ130060612522QQihZ003QQcategoryZ10183QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item130060612522

Okay, now look in his feeback at we he won just recently. It is here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270044573501

Same exact flute but with added engraving. What is deceitful about this? The fact that the seller says he is unsure of the name brand when clearly he covered it up with engraving on the top part of the flute. If you look closely you can also see where it says Venus on the headjoint. Very tiny, but if you blow it up, you can see it. It is so obvious that the seller is trying to hide the real name because he knows the flute is not of quality and then no one will bid. Have a blessed day he says? What a hypocrite!

Josh, no harm done because I can't even remember what went on. Welcome back to the forum.

Another Ebay gem, check out the cork job on this piccolo. The seller says they repadded and recorked. Hopefully they'll fix it before they ship it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/PICCOLO-GEMEINHARDT-PLASTIC-SILVER-USA-FREE-SHIP-USA_W0QQitemZ7417468609QQihZ016QQcategoryZ16229QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem