Hi, I still struggle with the lost good sound of my venerable Gemeinhardt M2. But it`s getting better...

After much interesting reading on this incredible site I suspected my instrument had a cleaning problem. I do clean it frequently with cloth and rod, but I was never told to clean the embouchure hole. After 3 years of use it was, well, quite "dirty". After carefully cleaning the inside walls of the embouchure hole, I believe the sound did improve a lot.

Next I oiled the accesible key axes, using clockwork oil.

I also lubricated the two joints using mineral vaseline (this is clearly against Gemeinhardt indications on its WEB). But the joints were impossible to adjust swiftly, no matter how much I cleaned them and it was very difficult to align the holes with the embouchure. Even to dissasemble the headjoint was a pain.

Last I readjusted the small screws on some keys that block 2 holes with one finger, as it was noticeable that the second pad was not closing the hole properly. (sorry I`m not strong with right technical names in English)

Now, were all this a big mistake or is it something that can be done?

Should I have taken the instrument to a specialist and pay lot of money for this simple operations (simple at least for the first two, screw adjustment apart)?

Is there a method to adjust those key screws other than looking and testing the sound or taking it to the expert?

If it comes to replacing the pads (they are 30 years old, BTW), would it be possible to obtain a set of spares from factory or from other sources? Is it something I could do myself, at least for the big holes that are screw-fixed??

Please be kind with me if I merit the flames of hell for this audacity. But I`m sure other people (may be not the big professionals) already do or would like to make some adjustments and repairs on their instruments.

It would be nice if we, some interested students with enough manual ability for fine work could had access to part this knowledge...

Man, the flames of hell may be coming, but I just can`t look away. It`s like watching a train wreck. You may have incurred the wrath of the flute gods.

You can buy replacement pad sets, but repadding a flute is really an art form. If the pads are not perfectly seated and levelled, it`ll be leakier than Grandma Nelson`s colander and impossible to play to boot. Cleaning your embouchure is a good thing, and adjusting screws is ok too, even oiling, as long as you`re careful to not let it get on the pads, but you should probably leave the repadding for the pros.

Of course, this is coming from the same person who annoyed the hell out of her mother when she came home from work and found her 4th grader sitting at the kitchen table with her flute in pieces in front of her ;-) (But I really needed to know how it worked!)

"Next I oiled the accesible key axes, using clockwork oil."

Seeming that your flute has not been oiled in a few years, you most likely just gummed it up more my doing this.

"I also lubricated the two joints using mineral Vaseline (this is clearly against Gemeinhardt indications on its WEB)."

Yes, the web site is against it for a good reason. NEVER put any kind of lubricant on the tenons of your flute. It will gum it up worse and you will end up with more problems then with what you started with. Take it into a technician.

"Should I have taken the instrument to a specialist and pay lot of money for this simple operations (simple at least for the first two, screw adjustment apart)?

If it was only the screws needing adjustment, that is one thing, but your pads may need to be re leveled in the process. Little things like this are not going to cost a fortune. At least the shouldn`t.

"Is there a method to adjust those key screws other than looking and testing the sound or taking it to the expert?"

There is a sequence you are suppose to do it in.
1) F natural to F#
2) E natural/F# to B flat
3) E natural to F#
4) D natural to F#
5) A natural to B flat
6) Thumb B natural to B flat
7) Foot joint C natural to C#

"If it comes to replacing the pads (they are 30 years old, BTW), would it be possible to obtain a set of spares from factory or from other sources? Is it something I could do myself, at least for the big holes that are screw-fixed??"

You can purchase pads, but it takes a lot of experience and proper training to replace pads, it is a very tedious job. Better left to a technician.

Micron it a good person to ask questions to regarding repairs, he is very knowledgeable in his field.

Thank you all.
But specially thank you Kara, for the sequence. It`s the first time I see it in black over white anywhere!

It astonishes me that I should take the instrument to the technican to clean the tenons. In fact, it´s the second time I do this. The first time was last year and it has worked Ok for many months. That time I followed the suggestion of a fellow, more advanced student. My teacher was not against doing it, she is a graduated from Conservatory and play concerts, I trust her.

Maybe mineral vaseline is not the right product. It was handy and I considered it easy to cleanm if something went wrong. Silicon greases, for exampe, are not known to gum with time.

I`m very happy to know that minor screw adjustments can be attempted by students if they want to take the risks; I do want to!.

I quite understand ninafire when he/she dissasembled mother`s flute as a 4th grader. I did many similar things as a kid (albeit no with flutes, these were unknown at home). It`s long over now and I would not do this for curiosity.

The first time I decide to temper with the mechanism (without much knowkledge)I was "forced" to do so; the middle C key blocked suddenly and I had my weekly class the next day. I unscrew the axe, oiled it and it has worked fine since.

I have another question:

I`ve seen in forums that the position of the "cork" in the headjoint is critical. Some people talk of a kind of magic "sweet point" for it`s position

I know, I need not and I should not touch THAT and so I will not.

But the case is that my flute has no visible "cork" at least not of that material. Of course it has an "adjustable" plug on the left end but resembles more a full metal fixed piston than a cork, unless the "cork" is sandwiched inside the metal plates I see from both sides.

Maybe it`s called "cork" as a simil to bottles or for other historic reasons?

Is this correct?

The cork in the headjoint is between the emboc hure hole and the nut at the top of the headjoint. When you stick the tail end of your cleaning rod into the headjoint...there should be a line that shows up in the embochure hole. That line is supposed to be in the middle of the embochure hole. People DO tend to tweek it one way or another if they find that they like that position better. most students do not attempt this though. The cork is in there quite tight and you do not want to ruin anything. Good Luck!

Dennis

Thanks Dennis. I`ve just tested it and I see the line on the cleaning rod. When tipping it inside (against the "cork"), the line is far from the center of the blowhole.

I estimate the line to be about 3mm to the side of the cork, measured from the center of the blowhole.

However, I have never tweeked with it intentionally, the c. rod is original and I am the first and only owner of this flute so far.

But I recall having checked a few times whether the "nut" at the head end was "tight", fearing it could leak from that side. The cork is fairly tight, true, but a fine pitch screw can pull something quite strongly without one noticing.

Now I don`t know what to do. Well, yes, I know at least the main option "take it to the technician"...

But, if I mark the present position on the rod (so I can reverse the action) and then test the sound moving the cork so that the line approaches the center of the embouchure, could I really "ruin" everything?

i.e, do tecnicians proceed differently?

Micron, long time I don´t hear from you... your opinion will be much appreciated, even if you completely disagree!

Still, has anybody an idea of why it`s called "cork" if it is made of metal?

There is cork between two metal disks in it, so it is a cork, you were on the right track before.

Hi all!.

Seems that the thread is given for closed.

Then thank you for all your answers.

Your welcome.

Hi,
To reaffirm a few comments that Kara has made,

1)If your tenons (joints between the sections) are too tight or too loose, you should have a repair person take care of them. If you oil them, the oil may initially appear to make things better BUT it will also collect dirt/abrasives and erode the joints. It also messes up the inside of the case with gunk. Best thing to do is clean with a damp cloth until the joints don`t kick when you turn them. If still too tight, > the repair person.

2) Oiling the mechanism is tricky because some places can`t be reached with a few drops of oil on the ends of the pivots. The new oil also tends to carry any old dirt (Read again: abrasives) and gummed up oil deeper into the mechanism. The fresh oil on the ends then collects dirt and lint where it is over-applied. Best thing to have a repair person dis-assemble the flute, clean the mechanism and re-apply the proper type of oil. I find that oiling only needs to be done fairly rarey (like every ten years) where I live in the mid-west but if one lives in a more dusty enviornment or closer to humid sea air, it may need to be done far more often.

3)Pads, Repair presons use a few different means to make sure of the correct seal when they adjust pads. To name only a few, they may use a light tester or a feeler for pressure sensitivity and to eliminate leaks. If you are randomly turning screws and eyeballing for accuracy, the chances of them improving may be moderate to ineffective. You may need to adjust cork thickness, pad height/alignment and level or even bend a linkage to adjust properly. AS a tip, if the dark ring around a pad that you ahve not been adjusted is uneven around the circle, the pad is probably not levelled to the tone hole or the tone hole isn`t level. In this case, the pad may need replacing or shimmed underneath to make it work properly. Also the pads need to have the same height when opened.If a pad doesen`t olen far enough or too far, the pitch of the affected notes will be off.

4)You were correct in assuming that a dirty embouchure hole will affect the tone. That should be cleaned as well as the bore.

5)Trying to move the cork stopper behind the metal disk inside the head joint may loosen it. If it is in the correct position, I would leave it alone.

6) loosing the tone of a good instrument may be the result of having it in a harsh enviornemet such in a cold and damp place in the winter time or it can come from a change in the way you are playing. If one doesen`t play for a few days, the tone suffers. If one eats too much salt, like on popcorn or potato chips, the lips can get swelled and the tone suffers. Chapped lips can mess up the tone as well.

Now if you have gotten this far, I`m not totally against learning about how a flute is repaired and I think that a flutist should understand how to make adjustments or do `minor` work. This should be learned on an instrument that is of no consequence -like a very old beginner flute. The trick about doing one`s own work is knowng when to do it and when to take it in to the repair person. For example, many M2 models have an issue with the screw in the end of the left hand key bank. This is the screw that goes through the first finger key and screws into a post between the first finger (C) key and the Bb key. It comes loose on many of this model. If this happens, notes may get fuzzy. If one overtightens the screw, the keys in the left hand seize up. If it is too loose, the keys can wander to the side of the holes. If you have this problem, you can make the adjustment. PLay it for about a week and do the adjustment again...and again...and again. OR take it to a repair person and tell them that the screw KEEPS coming loose and not have to worry about it again if it`s repaired properly. If that screw was loose or any other end post screw when you started adjusting those other adjustment screws on the keys, then the whole thing is out of whack. -just one example of an issue.

~Bilbo

Thanks a lot, Bilbo for your comprehensive answer.

Probably some of you in the Forum could find that I might be invading technicians` domains with my questions and "experiments". But this is part of my personality. I love to feel capable of solving the problems I find in my everyday life, I take them as challenges and I often act as the engineer I am professionally.

In any case, I apologize.

Your points:

1) OK for the tenons. I understand the problem. I will clean them and try your suggestion. They do not seem to be too tight or too lose, just right when they do not stick. It happened first time after a year of use and I lubricated them only twice in 3 years.

2) As for oiling, I did it very carefully, with very small quantity of a very fluid oil (used in clock machines) and cleaned all excess with cloth. So far it has given good results. I live in a very dry city (Madrid). Humidity can be as low as 30% for weeks or months. The first time I tried oiling was because the screw you mention in your last point (C & Bb) was suddenly "too tight". I unmounted the bridge, cleaned and oiled it and it has worked OK for another year. Recently this screw got "lose", as you say and I readjusted it and also re-oiled everything accessible.

You are completely right in that these adjustments should be made on an instrument with limited consequences. This is quite may case; I paid 220$ for my M2 back in the late 70`s and very unfortunately for me, I kept it without use for so many years. I am planning to upgrade to an intermediate instrument (I will post for some help later).

I can (and I did) dis-assemble two of the keys banks and re-assemble them easily (though carefully). I have worked many years in miniature electronics, and know how to deal with small and fragile parts. No problem about that, only my sight is no longer as good as it should be but I have good magnifying glasses .

5) OK, I do not intend tamper with the cork position -unless it becomes necessary. The mark on the cleaning rod is not at the center of the blowhole, but about 3mm (1/8") to the crown side. Now, how do I know if it`s in the right position? The third octave sings OK (for my level of skill on making it speak).

But I am having problems with the low E & F, F# notes basically. So:

3) I already tested the pads with a strong light (sunlight). All pads close OK except the fourth body hole, counting from the foot end (the one next to my right hand index finger).

It is not a problem of screws adjustment. I can press it directly (not through the key bank) and I still see light coming inside. I further tested shadowing the area with a pencil and I know the problem is the rear part of the pad (next to the pad hinge). I inspected and cleaned the pad and it seems to be OK, but the problem is still there.

I know that pads must be leveled. Could you help with some indications? In this instrument, the pad is fixed with a central screw and a flat washer.

Losening the screw a little might help? Or should I shimmer from underneath (I understand for this, to place a small and thin piece of something between the "plate" and the skin pad). If correct, what material is used normally for shimmering skin pads?

Regards,

Very interesting.
Just for reference, I believe the term is "shim" rather than "shimmer".

Thanks kippsix.

I keep learning and learning...

Jose Luis,

This stuff is not for beginners, amateurs, parents or intermediate players. It`s really for repair persons.

That being said.
Sounds like you are maybe the type to do some adjusting.
Check that all pads are in good order.
They should not have any rips or fuzzy places. They should be fairly level and any dark ring around the pad where it touches the tone hole should be consistantly even. Check for any side slop in the mechanism. This makes the pads hit at different places when the key closes and the contact ring on the pad becomes too large.
If you are having a problem with F# on down, it could be that the one of the G keys are leaking or the LH 4th finger G#/Ab key.
Itf that 4th body hole (F# key) isn`t closing properly, then it may be that the screw on the key cup of the 3rd hole (F key) is mis-adjusted. You also have to close the 2nd (E key)and 1st keys (D key) and adjust properly so that that that(F# key) closes with each one. Another issue with that F# key is that when you drop the rh First finger F key, it also links to the key way up the flute between the first and 2nd fingers. It`s usually called the Bb key.

When I say, use a light, a small light is placed inside the instrument and the pad contacts are viewed in a darker room. I use a very small light from a hobby store that is a 12V grain of wheat bulb attached to a stick (For pushing it up the tube) and a 12 volt power source. With a light and the pad closed, the contact ring around the pad appears like the corona of the sun during an eclipse. Any unusually large areas of light are leaks. Another way of checking is with a feeler paper. My teacher is fairly adept at using a thin wedge of cigarette paper placed underneath the pad. He closes the pad lightly and pulls out the thin piece of paper. By carefully feeling the resitance around the pad, he could tell if it was closing properly. I prefer the light.
If it were me, It may make sense to draw a picture of each pad that leaks and try to draw whee the pad is leaking to help remember.

Shimming the pad underneath if necessary.
Carefully remove the keys from the tube and first mark a point on the pad at the base of the key cup with a pencil line so that it is returned to the exact same place in the key cup as before. To remove the right bank, it may be necessary to also loosen the trill keys behind the right bank of keys. Be careful with the needle springs. They are well named and cen break off easily.

Remove the pad screw and pad. Place a wedge of paper between the pad and any other shims where it needs to make the pad lower. The thickness and size of the paper or card stock is going to be critical to this working correctly. Replace the pad with the line on the pad rotated to the same place as before. Reassemble and test with a light.

Don`t loosen the pad screw and leave it loose. You will loose it that way.

Some starter things.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio