Bilbo "I believe that you may think that I'm debating the degree of motivation when I am trying to define the word motivation."

From what I read from your posts it just seemed like you were giving examples of motivated people.

That's fine you can disagree with my definition. I'm not saying that your concept of motivation is wrong or anything. However, in all my classes we use the definition that I gave because it meets our needs as educators. My American Heritage dictionary defines motivation as "an incentive, inducement, or motive, especially for an act." To me this sounds more like a bribe. Since I think it is wrong to bribe students this definition does not meet my needs.

Just out of curiousity. I collect dictionaries and my Websters is at my parents house,what is the exact definition that your dictionary gives? I was not happy with definition in my A.H. All my other dictionaries that I have on me are Spanish-English dictionaries or just plain Spanish dictionaries. (I'm not making up the collecting dictionaries, I have 10 dictionaries in my room here at school, but for some reason the only English dictionary I brought is my A.H. but then again the thing weighs like a hundred pounds)



I'm also reminded of something that I heard once about arguements that are about semantics. I thought it was funny so I'll share it now.

"If the issue is just semantics then you certainly won't mind using my definition and speaking like me, after all it's just semantics."

Hope that there are no hard feelings, I'm just happy that someone wanted to talked about motivation.

Erin,
I think that the issue is that your professor is defining motivation as it applies to the course material.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=motivation
not mych help but
If you try:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=8&q=http://www.answers.com/topic/motivation&e=42

You can get some ideas.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

He's defining motivation in terms of skills that can be taught, these skills are not necessarily academic. According to my professor motivation is content bound. You can't just say that somebody isn't motivated, you have to say what that person is not motivated to do. He's not talking about what motivates people to turn on a light, or to breathe. He's linking motivation to a lot of attribution theory ideas (how people attribute things that happen), this is because lots of students attribute their success and failures to things that they have no control over.

For example, Graham could have attributed his crappy lesson to three things. He could say that his lesson was crappy because
1. He didn't practice efficiently enough. (internal effort)
2. His teacher doesn't like him or the music he is playing is too hard. (external)
3. He's just not talented. (internal ability)

If Graham attributes his crappy lesson to the last two options than there is nothing that he can do about it, so why should he be motivated to practice? If he attributes his lesson to the first option then he can do something about it, and therefore be motivated to practice.

Students often link there failures do to things that they have no control over, and if you link an outcome to something that you have no control over it isn't logical to have any motivation to keep on trying.

Erin,
Now that we are back to the subject,

Please excuse the spelling/grammar police but this sentence has a few errors (And mind you, I have no clue about English): "Students often link there failures do to things that they have no control over, and if you link an outcome to something that you have no control over it isn't logical to have any motivation to keep on trying. "

Should read: "Students often link their failures to things that they have no control over, and if they link the outcome to something that they have no control over it isn't logical for them to have any motivation to keep on trying."

In the midst of an illogical world, I have heard that the definition of insanity is when a person keeps doing the same exact thing repeatedly and expects a different outcome.

Often with the case of learning music, if a person has some talent and they have a good concept of the correct goal, they fall short in the amount of preperation or the preperation technique. Your internal effort has to be in the right amount and in the right direction. IOW: Practice doesn't necesarily make one perfect, it is how they practice. Also, it doesen't make one perfect instantly. It takes time.

Now #2 and #3 may be getting confused a a bit:

2. His teacher doesn't like him or <unrelated issues> the music he is playing is too hard. (external)
Wouldn't this second part be related to internal ability (if others seem to master the same piece) and not the external judgments, or more correctly predjudices of his teacher? Now if the teacher doesen't like him, I would suggest two options.

A)Try to change the teacher's opinion or

B)try to change the teacher.

I would suggest the first option initially because it may be to the student's educational benefit to expand on the student's limitations. I think that a small issue currently in education is that if a student is not achieving in a certain field, they give up quickly and try another.

3. He's just not talented. (internal ability)
In this case I would consider lack of talent only as a last option if this individual is enrolled in a music school of higher education that has an entrance requirement.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

Sorry for any grammatical errors.

"the definition of insanity is when a person keeps doing the same exact thing repeatedly and expects a different outcome." That's the defintion that alcoholic's anonymous gives.


Now about the music being too hard, I can see where it could be thought of as internal ability. I was trying to reword the examples in terms of music. If it were purely academic the examples would be:
1) You failed a test because you didn't study hard enough. (internal effort)
2) You failed a test because the teacher hates you, or the test was too hard. (external)
3)You failed the test because you're stupid, or you have some kind of learning disabilty. (internal ability)

Yes, you were right the first option is obviously the best.

I'd say that the second option is external, because the student doesn't have control over how hard the test is. It might be true that the test is too hard and it might be true that the teacher hates the student, but both of these factors are something that the student has no immediate control over. Plus in my opinion if a teacher is failing students because they don't like them, then that teacher should not be teaching.

As far as the third option is concerned many students are told "Oh you can't do this because you have a learning disability." The student has no control over their learning disability, just as a musician doesn't have control over how much talent they are both with. If someone is going to contribute their failures to the third option they might as not well even bother doing the work in the first place, I mean the teacher told them that they can't do it.

You said "He's just not talented. (internal ability)
In this case I would consider lack of talent only as a last option if this individual is enrolled in a music school of higher education that has an entrance requirement."

I'm glad that this is a last option, because if a teacher is going to say something like "Oh Frankie just has no talent." then the teacher shouldn't even bother wasting his time by trying to teach Frankie. All your other students were born with 10 pounds of talent, and poor Frankie was only born with one pound of talent. Nothing you can do about that, so why even bother.

you said "a small issue currently in education is that if a student is not achieving in a certain field, they give up quickly and try another."

My feelings are that is a student is not achieving in a certain field, the teacher should not give up on the student and move on to something else. The teacher needs to provide more intensive instruction to that student.

All teachers need to find out what strategies successul students employ in order to be successful and then the teacher needs to explicitly teach those strategies to the unsuccessful students

Erin,
Yes.

I think in the case with music, it is easy for the judgemental part of the learining process to seem unfair because of the complexity of the field. Issues of the player's style, tone or musicality become matters of current trends and preferences. I was having a discussion with my retired flute teacher yesterday about flutes and tone quality. I told him that I've heard about a major orchestra who hired a flutist with the stipulation that the flutist would purchase a Powell flute. He said that his teacher's orchestra (Another major Symph.) would not hire a flutist with a Powell, they'd have to have a Haynes.

Now this: "All teachers need to find out what strategies successul students employ in order to be successful and then the teacher needs to explicitly teach those strategies to the unsuccessful students."

or teachers need to teach the use of those strategies to these unsuccessful students. Interesting point in that students come to higher education with a variety of experiences that are a part of their past intellectual, psychological and emotional education. It may be a good point about today's schools that the ed system at least trys to save them. When I went to the orientation at my university's music school, the person who was later the dean of the school, told the group the old standard military tactic that, "one in three of us would not make it past the freshman year." He was basically correct. I received a masters degree from that school, was badly prepared at the outset and was also advised out of college preperation (by an idiot) when I entered high school. Initially my motivation in college was not to give up. Eventually, it was to truely learn the material. Then, my grades went to the top.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

Bilbo,
You're a prime example of how people need to view success in terms of learning and progress. People who view success like this tend to be higher achievers.

Your story about being advised out of college preparation reminds me of one of my professors. He was apparently a terrible student in high school, and he was told that he'd never succeed in college. My professor of course didn't listen to that and now he has a PhD and he has been a university professor for the past 20 years.

When I was little I was a bad student and my parents told me that I would never go to college and I would probably end up being a secretary all my life. Well now I have a BA, I'm working on getting a teaching certificate (in Special Education)and I plan on getting a Masters after I've been teaching for 5 years.

So in a way it is good question authority at times, especially when they tell you that you can't do something.

Now as far as your story about a symphony not hiring someone because of the type of flute he/she has, that is just really dumb. Are those orchestras getting paid by Haynes and Powell to have the flautists play their brands?

The instrument does not make the player good, hard years of practice and dedication makes the player good.

Erin,
The best of luck in your work. Keep it up. For me, when the advisor in 8th grade advised me out of college prep., I showed up in the regular 9th grade English class and was basically kicked out andtold to go to the College prep class.
You wrote:
"Now as far as your story about a symphony not hiring someone because of the type of flute he/she has, that is just really dumb. Are those orchestras getting paid by Haynes and Powell to have the flautists play their brands?"

This is actually an examle of the tendancy in even classical level music to have certain popular trends. The trend was and is now for a certain tone quality. The Director happened to know that a certain brand had certain tonal characteristics and wanted that flute. Actually my teacher was advising the Haynes (New and old) as long as they have en embouchure that isn't with the modern huege square cut. This type cut encourages greater dynamic capabilities but discourages embouchure development and tonal stability. As an example our discussion centered around a recital that we were attending where a gold Powell was being played by a premiere flutist holding one of the top US jobs in a major Symphony orchestra that is going to remain nameless. I commented on how he was not only tapiering his cadence notes to phrases with diminuendos and drops in pitch and how he was having troubles holding a steady pitch. It seemed to jump up and down slightly in a certain ways that was not part of a vibrato. Aside from the debate about tone and these pitch thingies, this player was very good. I can't emphasize that point enough. From what I heard, when this Symphony lost their long running 1st chair, this player was hired without any audition process. He was just invited to join. Ther were some complaints but it just goes to show how fair the music world really is.

"The instrument does not make the player good, hard years of practice and dedication makes the player good. "

BTW: Hard practice isn't enough for these top levels. Sometimes proper training and practice by the proper teacher may get you there as well as a great deal of performance experiences and being well prepared in the right place at the right time. It's just a bit competetive for ordinary folks.

~Bilbo

Interesting comments Bilbo, I agree to a point. When I was working in Europe and playing my Haynes, I was at a disadvantage, even when I was able to get the pitch up to that level, A=444, they seem to have the opposite trend there, high and bright and edgy, which is how one has to play to hit that pitch level

Since you have played in europe Patrick, My teacher was from a certain school of tone where he was taught that the correct tone shoul be the "Ü" sound and not the eeeeee that these newer style flute tone holes produce. He also maintains that you have to just about be French to articulate properly. In the US, they always teach to tongue behind the upper teeth gums.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

good comments, as a teacher in music school said to one of the students playing a brannen-cooper, "put a little tone on that edge"

good comments, as a teacher in music school said to one of the students playing a brannen-cooper, "put a little tone on that edge"

good comments, as a teacher in music school said to one of the students playing a brannen-cooper, "put a little tone on that edge"

good comments, as a teacher in music school said to one of the students playing a brannen-cooper, "put a little tone on that edge"

Nice Patrick
Gotta remember that one.
Gotta remember that one.
Gotta remember that one.
Gotta remember that one.

~Bilbo