Hi list! How would you compare a Sonare with a YFL481?

I could get both for almost the same price here. I could try both a little yesterday and I d idnot hear much difference in tone. But I am a beginner and far from being any expert.

It was more difficult to make the Sonaré sing at the beginning, but it's normal, as it had the holes open and in-line G, but I have learned to play with closed holes and offset G so far.

I can say that the Powell seemed considerably heavier compared to Yamaha, too much to my taste. The foot also was rather too fat and the vendor used lot of force (IMO) to fit it in place (I dared not) The headjoint by the contrary, fitted much better than Yamaha's.

Sorry, I omitted to say the Sonaré is model SF6CFG, all silver. But I cannot see it at the Powell Sonare site. The headjoint had the Powell name and "Signature" engraved on it

It is really more matter of preference or ones taste between the two. I couldn't say that one is better then the other. I think both are great. I do like a the headjoint that comes on the Sonare better then what comes on the Yamaha. I was really impressed with the Sonare when I last tried one. I have always had intonation issues with the Yamaha 481 when I used to own one. I can't say much about the intonation on the Sonare because I only tried one briefly.

Sound wise, I liked the Sonare better just because of the headjoint.

If you are used to playing an offset G, then I really think that you would be better off to stay with a flute that has an offset.

That is my two cents. I hope it helps.

I agree about the two flutes.
I think it depends upon preferences of sound and playing ability of the flutes.
I think that from what I've seen on the web, the student line Powells are less discounted from retail than the Yamaha instruments (Which doesn't mean much these days) so I'm not sure what the ultimate deal is going to be end.
I'd be tempter to ask if a Yamaha EC head on the YFL-584 sound better to you jose_luis tha the 461 flute CY head joint. Also the 584 series uses different springs so the keywork action is different.

As for getting used to the inline G Vs off-set G and getting used to open holes. There are two beliefs on this. Some plug the holes and open them one at a time. Some never get to opening all the holes and play with a few of the plugs. I think that playing with an open-hole keyed flute makes us pay attention to finger location and we need to just get to practicing that way carefully. Then it's just a matter of a few weeks or less before our fingers are fine.

The same goes for off-set G. I'm not going to get into the argument of whether or not the off-set G mechanism is stronger or whether or not this small added weight is an advantage. The usual argument is that if one is used to an off-set G, then they can make the transition to open holes easier but this brings up the concept of left hand support. With normal hand dimensions, the inline G may actually improve support of the flute with the left hand wrist needing to be angled more so that the support is a tad more underneath the flute.
I've seen a few times where the off-set G is no advantage in having a student cover the holes because this slight change in the location of the key really did nothing to help the student to actually cover the hole. They missed it anyway because their finger was not centered over the hole on the prior closed hole flute so they transferred this hand position over to the new flute. Again, an open hole keyed flutist will do better if they simply learn to feel the holes.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

Thanks Kara and Bilbo.

I have rather large hands, thin and with long fingers.

As a curiosity I have just measured my left index; it's aprox. 8.6 cm; middle is 9.8 and the annular (the one for the ring -and G_) makes 9 cm.

Regarding the offset G, I think is just a question of adjusting to the new position and I'm confident I will be able to work it put.

Open holes is quite a different thing to me, but I'm almost decided to try that. Also closed holes intermediate instruments are increasingly rare here.

I have not decided yet. I liked more, the Yamaha as it felt lighter, opposed to the Powell -it felt like an iron stick (lo)

I will see if I can try the 584 with an EC head. However, it's more expensive and as I understand it, only the headjoint is silver.

I hope to get also some support from professionals in a couple of european symphonic orchestras, as I have some acquainteances there (albeit, no flutists!)...

Yes jose_luis, you do have rather large hands. I think that the issue about covering the holes isn't so much about the size of the paws so much as the relationship of the lengths of the fingers. As an example, I saw a girl who's ring fingers were longer than her middle fingers once. Now if the fingers are fat at the tips, then it can be difficult because you'd keep hitting the trill keys or the G# lever by accident.
So the issue with the open holes, I think is to really pay attention to feeling the holes in the proper place on the fingers. (underneath the finger nails) Working scales and pieces slowly to accomplish this feel for the holes all the time. I have to do this even now after a good 30 years on open holed flutes. It may be my Left middle finger or it may be my RH ring finger when going from a low C to an Eb. -What ever. With the inline G or offset G, keep the left wrist bent back a tad more so that you are supporting the flute from underneath and then when you are changing fingerings, you aren't juggleing the flute in it's support locations and as a consequence, it's not moving on the lips as much.

That is a good point about the Yamaha 584 body being not all silver. hmmm. I keep forgetting that they did this to the 500 series a few years back. I have an older 581 model that is solid tubes but plated keys of course. It's played nicely for the past 15 years. At any rate, I often advise the younger students to not buy silver bodies because of the harsh enviornment of school bands and the fact that they aren't really very careful with their flutes all the time. ~Not that you'd be that way.

here's the comparison chart:
400 series:
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%253D594%2526CTID%253D237500%2526ATRID%253D20%2526DETYP%253DATTRIBUTE,00.html
500:
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%253D2186%2526CTID%253D237800%2526ATRID%253D20%2526DETYP%253DATTRIBUTE,00.html

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

Thanks Bilbo for the valuable hints to better hand position and finger. I think I could feel tjose holes in the very short test I did with the SOnare. But I do not plan to play modern musica or Jazz and I will porbably use some of the holes covered. But it's a challenge and I like this.

I have a doubt (sorry it sounds a little foolish), but, apart from the EC - CY cut, what is really the difference between an intermediate flute YFL 400 and a 500 series? Or better, what is (in general) the difference between Intermediate and Professional instruments at a level of price under 2000$ - 2500$?

To confuse me further, Yamaha calls the 584 a Professional silver flute but Fluteworld lists it in the intermediate instruments section.

Also at Fluteworld it amounts to some 250$ higher for the 500 - and with a nickel silver body...

The confusing thing about the 500 is that it was back in 1999, a solid silver flute. they downgaded the tube, I believe that it has pointed key cups on the keys that aren't open holed, which aren't that important but it has gold springs that I prefer. I'm not sure what Fluteworld lists as professional and why. It's a vague area as to what's Pro level. A professional flute may be anything from a cheapo flute that is being used to make money in a performance to a hand crafted flute.

Now that you mention this, I think that I'll send an email to Fluteworld and get their opinion.
~Bilbo

Hi jose_luis,
Here's the response from Fluteworld:

"Thank you for the inquiry. We like to list our flutes by price sometimes, to make it easier for people to locate and choose. The 500 series and up by Yamaha are considered professional level, and the 300 and 400 series are considered intermediate.

The main difference between the 400 and 500 series are the following:
**400 series Yamaha models have a sterling silver headjoint and body.
**500 series Yamaha models have a sterling silver handcut headjoint, white gold springs and pointed key arms (to help with quicker action while playing).

Each player will get a different response out of each flute they try. Not having a silver body doesn't mean a flute is not as good as one that has a silver body. It is more of "how does this flute respond and sound" for the individual player. The 500 series flutes have the potential to possibly last a player longer and allow them more flexibilty in what they are able to do with it, but again, that is not always true for every player.

We do offer a 10-day trial period, which I would highly recommend for you. Would you like more information?

Thank you,
Diane"


Hope this helps,
~Bilbo

The difference between materials of flutes is negligible, it's the design that matters... in regards to how a flute plays.

As far as longevity goes... solid silver will certainly out last its plated counterpart, but my own 10 year old Gemeinhardt with solid body and plated keys has yet to show any wear of plating on it's keywork, but its mechanism is wearing before the plating. In time wearing of keywork tubing at friction points gives way for key movement which is repairable, but not worth the cost unless you had a multi-thousand dollar flute (It can run from $600-1000).

Expect to have to purchase a new flute in 10 years regardless of plated or not... give or take some years depending on how often you play your flute.

The one reason you would want silver tubing is that the cost is reasonably cheap (in the flute scheme of things), it helps resale value and should your flute get into a mishap and the body was damaged to where the true body material is exposed you can usually get it repaired without a sign of damage on a solid tube. A good technician can re-silver plate over worn patches in a way that is hardly noticable though.

I would venture to say the Sonare is a better buy as you are getting a semi-professional grade headjoint with it (its selling point). However you may be better served by getting a cheaper silver plate model and purchasing a professional head joint of your own choosing. You'll notice that the Yamaha 500 series is silver plated... it's selling point is its professional head (If you like the EC head that may be a better deal).

It all boils down to how much do you have to spend and what are all your options.