Hi List,

In Haendel's Hallenser I sonate, Movement I (adagio), there are these double notes, A1+A2 and then G#1+G#2 (I put a copy in the avatar).

How are they played? What is their meaning -or its name?

Thank you for your help.

i am no expert i am probably wrong but i think they are just 2options you can play the top note or the bottom note

Yes. I agree. Sometimes these double notes were included for other instruments that may choose a better range. Such as Violin or Recorder.

If this is an Urtext edition, it may have something to say about it in the footnotes or in the appendix of the accompaniment part.

~Bilbo

Thanks.

I see that the explanation was quite simple.

I was expecting some sort of special effect like a chord or playing "both" notes simultaenously, in some way. But flute playing is complicated enough so as to invent new tricks.
This is a German edition and is urtext. It says it is for Flute and not a recorder. I could not find any notes at all.

The other issue that is weird about the print in the avatar is that generally, the bottom two lines are the Basso Continuo part. This would be the case with the bottom noes that have the numbers below them (Figured Bass). The next line of staff above that is the right hand of the kbd and is generally the realization of the figured bass. As an example, in your music, the note on the 3rd beat (low C nat.) has a 6 below it, this means that one should play in some form a note which is a 6th above the bass. This would be an A and this is indicated in the next staff above. One can also add a third such as an E as well but it's not required. Now I could say that this line that you have in question looks like the Kbd part right hand but it isn't realy good part writing for an editor to realize this figured bass with parallel octaves(The Parallel A to G#s in that part.) So as an example, I believe that the octave A notes on that third beat could have resolved with the top going down to G# and the bottom going up to b or vice versa.

So I have to ask, are you sure that this is the flute part on top of that Bass staff? .......Now I have to look it up. aha!!
Here's what I have in that measure:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v353/Bilbo_Baggins/Notes-1.jpg

It's from a C.F. Peter's Edition. These Sonatas were written for Querflote <Violine> (As I suggested above.) und Bezifferten Bass -realized by the esteemed Waldemar Woehl.
Play only the top line of my link on that Yammy

How is this new flute working out BTW??

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

is that an URTEXT you are playing off of? Interesting how old original music had so little in the way or articulations, dynamics, etc.

I think old composers left the adornments and other details to the improvisation and interpreation of the player. I was told that most or all Barque music was originally written like this.

At that time I guess the musicians knew the style of the time and did not need so much etails as we need now.

Bilbo, thank you for your deep exam of the notation. It's quite interesting. I will send you a private message concerning this edition, but it will be later as now I have to leave my Saturday class...

jose_luis wrote: "I think old composers left the adornments and other details to the improvisation and interpreation of the player. I was told that most or all Barque music was originally written like this."

Right on the money Jose.
Especially in this adagio, it was expected that the performer improvise various aspects of the music such as adding the "Essential Graces" (Trills, mordents, softenings, appogiatura and such) or anything else like the articulation and dynamics that was tasteful to make the music more full.
A good reason why certain articulations and even these essential graces were not always added was that the notation for them was not universally accepted or even though up. You basically see no accents in this music as one example. Universal writing of the notation was in the process of changing and many composers were using a form of their own shorthand that they could put into the music on the fly. More often as they were performing or rehearsing. One example of this is in how trills were written at the time. One composer may add a + sign or another may add a squiggle or maybe even a tr. abbreviation, but bringing up the subject of the trill from the period opens a whole can of worms. How to play the beginning, how to trill (Measured or variable rapidity) and how to end the trill(to Nachschlag or not?-that is the question).

Written out versions of Baroque improvisation can be found in Bach's Fl. Sonatas such as the classic example, BWV1030 in b minor or the 1st mvt of the E major Sonata BWV 1035. but the problem with these Bach pieces is that we have no idea what he was truely improvising upon. As the opposite of Bach leaving nothing to chance Handel wrote a few slow mvts. that were basically only skeletons. Whole notes and half notes. This gave the performer loads of space and time to indulge their whims. Almost too much for most. Now, there are 6 Telemann Sonatas (His Method Sonatas) that actually show his base themes for the flute in the flrst mvt. and then on the line above, the improv as suggested by Telemann. They are worth performing and can be repeated in performance so that both versions are heard. Another example of Baroque improv. is in the Book by Quantz, "On Playing the Flute" where Quantz lays down many of his concepts of late Baroque performance practice. Interestingly, outside of these above examples, there are really very few other instructions on improvising that were written during the Baroque period.

One last point about articulation in the period. More often the bottom two lines in a flute sonata such as the example by Handel were performed on harpsichord. This instrument was once described as sounding like a skeleton dancing on a tin roof. It's characteristis is that it can't really change dynamics (unless you added more strings), it couldn't accent notes, nor (since it has very short sostenuto) slur. No sense in wasting ink on adding articulation or dynamics to those lines. Now the successor to the Harpsichord, the "forte-piano" (C.1750)or "piano-forte" as it was aptly called did much better in this regard. So the music of Mozart (c.1780) probably had more scribbles above and below the notes.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

It could be interesting to comment about the meaning of "urtext".

A strange word really, I believe it is widely understood as music scores without further annotations, just the notes. As it was lacking those annotations or was not complete. Several sites in Internet provide "urtext scores", such as the Italian website Vivaldi Allegro.

However, the prefix "ur" is frequently used in German to denote something original, primitive or antique, as in Ursache (the primitive language), Urmensch (the primitive man), Urwald (the forest in its original condition), Urzeit (pre-deluge times) and so on.

I believe this particle "ur" comes from the Indoeuropean language, as German is the most recent language in Europe (it was systematized by Luter himself in the 16th century).

wiki says:

"An urtext edition of a work of classical music is a printed version intended to reproduce the original intention of the composer as exactly as possible, without any added or changed material. Other kinds of editions distinct from urtext are facsimile and interpretive editions, discussed below." The word "urtext" is of German origin; "ur-" (pronounced "oor") means "original". Occasionally the word "urtext" is capitalized, following German spelling practice.

Si it is not exactly what I understood for urtext, was it so also for you?

Jose,
Yes this is the general meaning of Urtext. As close as possible to what the editors surmise as is in the original score. Sometimes there are issues of clarity in the manuscripts and these are generally treated with some sort of comment in the edition. So it's not just the notes as you suggest. It would include slurs and articulation IF this is what the composer appeared to have intended.

~bilbo
N.E. Ohio