What are everyone's opinions on practising scales and arpeggios with the non-official (but easier) fingerings?

As an isolated example in 2 octave G, would you recommend using the official fingering as below:
t023|120b = D
t120|120b = E
t103|003b = F#
123|000b = G

Or would you just go for the much simpler:
t023|000b = D
t120|000b = E
t100|000b = F#
123|000b = G

Another one that I'm finding more hastle than its worth is opening the first finger hole to play middle D and Eb.

I always try to practise the official fingerings on all scales and arpeggios because I think in the long run it will be better, but on some I'm just finding my fingers in knots and not getting any real improvement.

I'm afraid that generally, I'm one for the standard fingerings. Generally they are devised for the best relative tone and tuning.Taks this statement: "Another one that I'm finding more hastle than its worth is opening the first finger hole to play middle D and Eb." I can hear when students miss this every time and I always correct them. You may not hear the difference if you aren't paying a very close attention to the tone qualities of these notes but it's there.

Another issue is the difference between the Thumb (automatic Bb) and the 1&1 Bb. Some will argue that the true Bb is the 1&1 but I'd say that generally this difference is very close depending upon the tone of the flute and that most "purists" choose their Bb based upon fingering difficulties rather than the tone quality.

One point about playing a musical instrument is to figure out how best to overcome our difficulties and try not to avoid them.

~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

I agree with Bilbo, one can usually hear the true intonation with the proper fingerings, the rule I follow is to use the alternate fingerings if something is flying by so fast that the difference is audible.

My first flute teacher taught me to play middle D and Eb with L1 down and I did so for about 4 or 5 years until I got another teacher (I was 7 when I started and nobody told me any different). It was a bit hard at first to change the habit but if you just keep reminding yourself before you play that you need to lift that finger for those notes you get used to it pretty quickly! It's worth it in the long run to be doing the correct fingering, because as has already been said - it sounds better!!

"Another one that I'm finding more hastle than its worth is opening the first finger hole to play middle D and Eb." Well, IMHO it depends on the type and quality of the instrument.

In my Yamaha 674H, if I do not open the first finger the result is awful and completely unacceptable!. It was less important with my student Gemeinhardt M2. But still with it, my teacher stared at me in reprobation if I forgot to open that hole even if she was not looking at my hands.

She told me that if really could not open that hole, I could at the limit play D / Eb with it closed "as the chldren did".

Her argument was very convincing and since then I take lots of care about doing it.

I do keep it closed for the trill from D#, but I think that is the standard fingering for this trill as only up to two fingers from only one hand are allowed to move in any trill (or is it not?)

Reeni,

Did you go get your money back from that first flute teacher?

Why would I get my money back?

I have to say that am the biggest advocate of alternate fingerings, however...when practicing scales, I practice with correct fingerings 100% of the time. I use alternate fingerings when a passage is quite difficult and extremely fast. Most of the time it isn't THAT audible that you used an alternate fingering. I would never use more than one in a row either. So, overblowing your A (to make E) and your B (to make F#) I would never recommend. Even if it wasn't a scale. You have to be picky if you use alternate fingerings as to where to use them. Also, if you ever want to play faster octave jumps in certain pieces (Like the Danzi Concerto in d that I am working on) you will learn to pop that first finger on the D, D#-Eb.

-Dennis

I agree that you should practice such basic things as scales with the correct fingering. Unless a passage is extremely fast, it shouldn't be necessary to use alternate fingerings. I do have to disagree with Dennis a bit, though. I try to stick to the correct fingerings as much as I can, but if it's is necessary, I see nothing wrong with using multiple alternate fingerings in a row. The technique I believe you are talking about is the use of harmonics, and I just (Sunday) played a piece (Dances of Galanta) in one of the orchestra's I play in that was full of 16th notes in the 3rd register at about 160 BPM. Some of the fingerings were extremely awkward, and for us to play at the required speed, we (as well as whoever had the parts before us) decided to use harmonics. We were playing entire runs in harmonics, so in some situations, I believe it is not only suitable, but necessary to employ multiple alternate fingerings.

Well, I do agree with that. If it is part of a group and the music is like that, then so be it. As for Solo work I have to disagree. I probably should have specified, but I was under the assumption that we were speaking on Solo terms. I have not yet played flute in a group (other than a horrible community band right as I was graduating High School) so I have no experience in that field. I played in groups on clarinet, but I have all the extra bells and whistles on my clarinet to make false fingerings really not necessary (unless a note seems more stable at certain dynamic levels (a la High Ab with the C# trill key for pp)).

-Dennis

Thanks for the replies, folks.

I'll keep drilling the correct fingering then. The trouble with teaching myself and only playing alone is that there is never anyone convenient to ask. The question came about when I listened to a James Galway masterclass (I don't have the link to hand at the moment) and he did a section on scales. He was blasting up and down with perfect intonation at scary speed, and I figured if he's playing that fast on all his scales is he using the alternates or not?

The L1 on middle D is something I tend towards leaving open because it sounds better, but I've been playing a lot of Irish recently and that middle section in Rondo Al Turca where you need to play fast or breath through your ears (probably both) and I honestly can't think whether I open L1 or not. On the Irish stuff I find it sounds better closed, as it gives a softer dirtier sound.

I also lean towards using L1&R1 for Bb because I play Dizi (Chinese bamboo flute) and it doesn't have the luxury of the knuckle keys or thumb keys (plus I find rolling the thumb over the B/Bb keys really awkward).

Scarily enough - Sir James uses correct fingerings.

-Dennis

why would any good flute player use alternate fingerings unless absolutely necessary? one can hear the difference in most cases..

Reeni- any teacher that teaches so poorly and gives wrong fingering info is a thief

"(unless a note seems more stable at certain dynamic levels (a la High Ab with the C# trill key for pp))."

I love that little trick! It also works to create a very stable, very well in tune Ab at other dynamics, though it can't always be used. I simply love having a C# trill...IMHO, it's the single most useful option available.

Patrick - somehow that teacher got me up to grade 5, though looking back on it I really don't know how (natural talent I suppose! ). And she didn't completely mess up my flute playing as it still sounded ok then, and I have no problems with wrong fingerings at all now. Obviously I agree that she was wrong to teach incorrect fingerings, but she was hardly a thief because I didn't waste all those lessons ending up not knowing how to play properly.