Stuff for the flute tabloids. lol.

This Altus 1207 bothered me for the longest time:
http://www.flutes4sale.com/0577Altus1207/0577Altus.html

I knew Altus helped Jupiter with flute design in some fashion...

But I didn't know Altus and Jupiter are both brands of KHS Musical, Taiwan:
http://world.khsmusic.com/front/bin/ptdetail.phtml?Part=Organization-01

So if anyone else thought that the Azumi model numbering system was eerily similar to Jupiter's system... it's because it is a Jupiter flute.

I just don't understand where the $900 dollar Azumi falls in line in quality vs Jupiter/DiMedici... it is priced below the highest Jupiter (non-dimedici) model 711. With all the raving for the Azumi one might get the impression that it bests the Dimedici line, but is significantly cheaper.

Food for thought.

Hmmm.. I have heard that too. The Azumi model that I tried was better than any of the lower line Jupiters. I would say it was more like the Demedici line. It was very nice quaility. IMHO, the body was just as good as any Yamaha. I was very impressed. The headjoint was the main kicker on it. I found the Z cut to have a nice full sound and not too airy with good flexability.

So far with the top dogs like Powell, Haynes and Altus comming out with a lower end model with one of there heads on it, I really think that the Azumi is going to come out near the top. I have heard nothing but praise about them.

We all know where your loyalties stand with Yamaha Micron.
Unless you have seen an Azumi yourself then I would take your last comment with a grain of salt.

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Joe, have you seen any Azumi models? If so, what is your take on them? The one I tried did not look like it had flat filed tone holes, but I did not take it apart and look at it extensively. That would be a shame if they do. :(

KHS is the parent company that owns both Altus and Jupiter...(among other things) It's like Steinway owning Conn- Selmer and Fender (among other things).

KHS is more akin to Yamaha and speculation is rampant over which is really larger, KHS or Yamaha. KHS makes other stuff besides musical instruments like yamaha does..

Altus distribution was handed back over to Jupiter in Texas when the CA division fell apart...(There's a very long and interesting story there that is better shared with adult beverages involved..way too much to type here..).

Yes there was a "partnership" for a while some years back when Altus "fixed" the Jupiter problems, (Tanaka and WIBB...thank you!) They are now, and have been for a while, in their own production facilities again.

It is very common to have filed tone holes on PRO model flutes. It is usually cost prohibitive to do that effectively on student and intermediate flutes. Both Jupiter and Azumi do it. Do they need to be dressed a bit? For sure. But it's better than wavy tone holes in the long run, for performance and pngevity. Micron and I disagree on that one...

The tone hole filing procedure is REQUIRED for installation of synthetic pads..Straubs or JS and the like. As a result, filing is much more common on pro instruments. Felt pads ultimately also benefit from the improvement in the tolerances as well. At the intermediate level though, the factory leveling leaves out the final tone hole dressing procedure which can cause some problems if not taken care of. But if it is, by your tech, it is a far superior and desirable modification because it improves pad longevity and responsiveness. The difference in "feel" is very noticeable.

I like the Azumi, Jupiter, and Altus flutes. I have no problems with them. I have no problems with yamahas either, although I don't care for certain things in them as both a player and a tech. Yamaha is never a consideration on my personal list...And when they come in for repair, their tone holes get repaired when necessary.

Muramatsu does not file tone holes either and their new padding system combined with that is a mess. I have two muramatsus and I have fixed the tone holes on both of them. As a result they don't have any warranty, but they play better than from the factory...

Joe B

I am going to taiwan in early feb to play, teach and judge a competition, maybe I can find out for all of you, I will put my detective cap on...

Thanks Joem that was very interesting.

Micron said: I have had no problem levelling Muramatsu tone holes without making the huge flats that I have seen in Altus.

I have a muramatsu that had the worst drawn and rolled tone holes I have ever seen in my life..

Micron said: The ONLY manufacturer I have encountered - and I have worked on over 120 brands - who mutilates tone holes to an extreme is Altus.

You should see the Miyazawa straub jobs then! I don't see the Altus example as extreme, but pretty standard when compared to other manufacturers I see around here. Any Straub equipped flute looks like what Micron would call "mutilated". The ones that aren't "mutilated" are Muramatsu and Yamaha and their rolled tone holes are not acceptable as far as I'm concerned either...

It's a "choose your poison". Micron likes non-filed because he likes to use a different method of leveling them sans filing. I don't care for his method for my own reasons and there's nothing wrong with that at all. I do things a different way and look at different things and have a personal preference to other methods..

We both work on many models and recommend differently, and the bottom line is why should anyone care? If we make the flutes play right and you are satisfied that the flute meets your expectations, that's all that matters..

Let's get over it folks...

Joe B

I am going to taiwan in early feb to play, teach and judge a competition, maybe I can find out for all of you, I will put my detective cap on...

That would be great Patrick. Thanks!

Where is the ignore button on this site? We need one of those!

I would have hoped that professional flute makers would not let flutes out of their doors unless they were in pristine condition. All this talk of correcting tone hole defects sounds like something not out of the ordinary...

Micron said: "get over it" seem sot me not so good a way to have a discussion of states and methods, and pros and cons.

That comment was meant to convey the meassage that it doesn't matter if they are unfiled and wavy, or filed and flat. That shouldn't deter anyone from buying a particular flute that they like. As techs all we do is reach for tools in bin A or bin B depending on what comes across our bench. I don't tell people to not buy yamaha flutes because their tone holes stink and their grommets all leak. (deficiencies to be sure) I just repair them when they come in and the flutes play much better. Same thing with Jupiter and Azumi. Just do the final dress on the tone holes and they are still way ahead of the competition.

Micron said: I have described what I don't like about heavy filing, necessarily followed by heavy "dressing". I would appreciate hearing what you dislike about increasing the roll where there are high areas. I always appreciate enlightenment.

Well I'm not sure what you mean by "increasing the roll" for high areas. We've discussed this before with "increasing the roll" for low spots and the tapping method for high spots. But increasing the roll means to re-roll it and that is just going to leave it in the same condition. So I'm not sure what you actually mean Micron..

My problems with jupiter and Azumi tone holes is not that they are filed, it is that they are not deburred.. There are tools out there for dressing (thinning) the rims back after abrasive leveling, and I've never seen one where the rim integrity has been compromised. (well maybe one, but that one was someone else correcting a damaged tone hole already) It is effective and has become a standard procedure on many pro flutes from which many student and intermeddiate flute will benefit. And that can be done whether or not it was done at the factory.

The ONLY problems I had with this procedure was when jupiter first started doing it and didn't get it quite right. The first batch of flutes with this procedure were filed and STILL NOT LEVEL! That leaves you with very little to work with. They have refined their operation and they are acceptable. Inother words, there's enough room left to do finishing.

For the non techs out there...

Drawn toneholes are never flat. When you draw a tone hole out of the body and the roller comes down to spin the roll on the tone hole, it's never (repeat NEVER) going to be level. Never has been, and unless some new technology comes it, they never will be level in that procedure.

Padding that in the past when filing was not done meant the padder put a bazillion little shims under the pad to match it's surface to the tone hole rim. Took forever and that unfortunately leaves the pad less stable and suceptible to needing adjustment more often. But that is the way it was a generation ago..

With the advent of Straubinger pads, a system needed to be designed to accomodate the flute to perform well with the higher tolerances of this pad. Tone holes needed to be flat so Dave came up with method to do that. (Yes that is filing a dressing and he designed the first set of tools for that purpose). Even felt pads are a little better than they were a generation ago so the combination of good quality felt pads or synthtetics combined with flat toneholes yields a better feeling mechanism and longer pad life and stability.

Joe B