This similar = This is similar

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Sorry I pushed reply instead of edit... Maybe it´s too late and time to go to bed.

Yes, I mean quality of sound, not the tuning. I can control the tuning rather well by now. It sounds dull or airy (should I say fuzzy)? It happens already on the 2nd octave D but is worst with Eb.

Eb2 is affected quite a bit by cork position. If your D and Eb are affected I would also look at the venting of your footjoint and your headjoint tenon..

It could be a pad, yes. Difficult for me to say. Do you think of anyone in particular?

Yes it can always be a pad, or two, or threee....

The cork could have dried in less than a year as it is rather a dry climate in Madrid, but..

Many a cork is not installed properly even if it hold suction. Many times it is sealing at the wrong end!

The cork position is definitively not the right one, but it came like that from the dealer. The rod mark shows on the border of the blowhole (the farthest from the crown side) and not in the middle (it is the original cleaning rod that came with the instrument).

17.3mm is an average location. You need to know exactly what your tube ID dimension is at the embouchure hole center (implications for rate of taper for third register tuning adjustment and some playing characteristics as well). Once the player is added to the system the fine tuning of the cork placement can begin....

See my article:
http://www.langemusic.com/Articles/flutetune.htm

At that time I was still adapting to the EC cut and several notes had less than Acceptable sound quality (and tuning, at that time). .... it could be that a minor problem could go undetected for a pro but still be an important issue for me?

That is possible...

But, coming to the subject of this thread, I notice that replacing the original B foot by the C foot of the Gemeinhardt M3 (though it fits a little loose), seems to improve those two problematic notes.

Foot joint design will most definitely influence this...there is more venting in the C foot, less lattice effect, making the sound less stuffy and open. That's why the rare Bb footjoint is considered the limit to octave length extension before creating problems for the D and Eb. If you're cork is out of position by a good amount, you will definitely notice it...

Joe B

Jose, the cork position should give you some difficulties with playing in tune if it's off by 4mm. You may notice it at the extrimes of the range.
This is odd as far as I am concerned that the cork isn't correct. Yamaha and the seller are both reputable. Fluteworld is supposed to check over the flute before it's sold.

It's also odd because, if the cork was loose, it generally gets pushed up towards the crown as the flute gets cleaned or as the crown keeps getting tightened.

Now, everyone will tell you that the cork goes in from the bottom end because it's a tad wider. But the upper end where the cork is actually located becomes rather cylindrical at that point. If it were me, I'd try moving it crefully with a decent wide dowel stick. If you aren't sure, then don't try it.
If you do, be careful not to scratch the inside. Maybe cover the dowel with a soft cloth. It can be tricky because the cork is generally rather tight and if you push, you only want to move it a small amount. I would have a dowel that is about 12" (30 cm) long and a small amount thinner than the head joint bore. Place the dowel inside the flute and then put the end sticking out against the table top. Grab the head joint carefully where the embouchure plate isn't and pull down firmly but carefully. The cork may break it's grasp and want to slide too far. Carefully.
Measuring with the cleaning/tuning rod is tricky. Some of the rods that are plastic are molded with the two halves not aligned. The wooden ones should be better. The other issue is trying to visualize the center of the embouchure hole where the line should be placed. Brannen web site mentions flipping the head joint. That would be like left handed vs right handed. Doing this may help to see the alignment.

At the Galway forum, they have been talking about humidifying the pads to make them seat better.

This definitely falls into the (gulli)BULL category..

This may work since it may soften the felt and the covering just a tad.

OK..that means the pad job was NOT DONE PROPERLY, or the pads are just too old and need TO BE REPLACED PROPERLY...

You guys can put this in the gullible section if you wish but I've seen where some of the old pros used to not clean out their flute every time because it would help the humidity.

Bull...and now you know why....

I wouldn't do that as I think that it promotes germs and dirt inside but it may have some merit for the humudity idea.

GOOD FOR YOU!!!!

All breathing on pads does is promote stickiness as proteins are expelled from the breath directly onto the pad and tone hole where they will stick and promote pads tearing... IT'S WHY YOU SWAB A FLUTE OUT AS WELL...

Maybe I should shut up since I'll get more repads from gullible people that way....

I do know that if I don't play one of my flutes for a few weeks, the tone seems to get more fuzzy. Part of the reason may be that the pads and the cork can dry out in the case. One thing that just may help the cork would be to put a loose wad of cotton between the crown and the cork assembly and periodically put a few drops of clean water on it. ~be advised that I have not tried this though. Just a thought.

Once again....this happens for a couple reasons...one is that cork will do that and the other is that the cork wasn't installed correctly in the first place...Moisture will ruin flute headcorks and here's what it looks like when corks are not installed properly...Sure they seal but are causing lots of acoustic problems:

http://www.langemusic.com/Files/stopper.jpg

Joe B

Now, everyone will tell you that the cork goes in from the bottom end because it's a tad wider. But the upper end where the cork is actually located becomes rather cylindrical at that point.

NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The headjoint tube is tapered all the way to the crown and is cylindrical ONLY, ONLY, ONLY at the tenon. (because it goes into a cylindrical barrel!!!!

Joe B

you tell 'em Joe!! right you are..

now let's get back to Angelina Jolies lips...

Joe I would love to see you post that stuff on the Galway board! You would probably get kicked off for not posting the same opinion as Galway though. That does happen time to time. My post never got posted on how I tried the breathing on the pads and it never worked. Hmm... I wonder why that is?

Kara, I received many copies of this post you mentioned. Although there is some kind of problem happening at Yahoo that causes a post to be sent many times, I did not see any consistent replies to your post anyway...

Zevang

Really? It still isn't showing up on the board for me when I look. That is odd. I know that people who receive messages through email did get it. That explains then some.

"NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The headjoint tube is tapered all the way to the crown and is cylindrical ONLY, ONLY, ONLY at the tenon. (because it goes into a cylindrical barrel!!!!
Joe B"

Geeze.....
Well Joe,

I did not say: The head joint was not tapered at the cork end. I know how some really fear that someone will actually try to insert the cork from that end. I said that it "becomes rather cylindrical at that point" Meaning that the taper is considerably less than around the emb. hole where the actual paraboloidal shape really exists.

My reasoning is that anyone who has made the 'mistake' of removing a cork plug at the crown end knows that it really isn't very difficult to remove a slightly loose cork from that end and that the metal disk does not drag on the metal of the head tube. So, my meaning that there is a severe lessening of the taper at the cork end. If this lessening was not present at that point than any movement of the cork along the length of the cylinder will result in either a tightening of the cork seal (towards the crown) or a loosening of the cork seal(Towards the EH) and not merely a break in the seal from the change in location. If the taper was even slight, any designer in his right mind would not say to tighten the crown to adjust the position of the cork as in the above Brannen link for several reasons.

The other final issue is that acoustically and for the sake of manufacture, there is no practical purpose to having that taper continue to the crown and mechanically there is every reason not to do so because it would gurantee that any fine tuning of the cork position as you yourself have prescribed would result in a bad seal or an overly tight cork which could actually cause the head joint to stretch.

" Joe I would love to see you post that stuff on the Galway board! You would probably get kicked off for not posting the same opinion as Galway though. That does happen time to time."

Kara, people post dissenting opinions all the time there. I only know of one person for sure who got removed.

"My post never got posted on how I tried the breathing on the pads and it never worked. Hmm... I wonder why that is? "

I believe that I as well as Zevang read your post. I also thnk that the forum is back to working order in that there are no mulitple posts going on. I don't get the E-mails though. I only read the online forum.

Joe's above information isn't revolutionary. A as a matter of fact, he basically was simply reinforcing or explanding on what I was typing only from the viewpoint of a repair tech. I could have detailed it better but I just hate typing too much.

I will say that I discussed with "Meme" a long time ago about how pads get sticky from our breath and that he basically didn't agree with my theories. I'm glad that Joe B. holds with this theory that the contents of the exhaled breath can cause the problem. Although he used the term "proteins", I would say that sugars are atomized into the water vapor as we exhale and tend to be deposited on the flute as the moisture condenses on the cooler surfaces. This is a good reason why flute pads can develop more of the sticky problem in winter months.

As for breathing on the pads, and Joe B's comment:
"that means the pad job was NOT DONE PROPERLY, or the pads are just too old and need TO BE REPLACED PROPERLY"

That is an assumption that is based upon his considerable experience but an assumption of which he would need to actually see the flute to confirm.

This brings up a possibie underlying concept. Mind you I am not criticizing any one repair tech in particular. I would say that many flutists tend to not take their flutes to repair tech's at every suspicion of a possible minor leak.

1)A good reliable repair tech can be difficult to find. I believe that even Jose-Luis has cited that his town does not have any one that he knows and would trust. Playing gigs on the road makes it all the more impossible. As an example, I would say that if you ask Sir James about this you'd find that he has a very small select handful of repairmen that he trusts in key areas around the globe.
2)Loosing valueable prectice/performance time while the flute is in repair. For Symphonic musicians as well as soloists, this is not a tolerable option. Sadly repairmen generally don't loan out those Nagaharas and Powells.
3)The repair tech could make the flute play worse by not fixing the issue properly or they could "fix" things that were not broken.
Many flutists from around the world have experienced these above issues at some point in spite of the fact that there are many repair techs that are conscientious and well qualified.




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Jose-Luis,
Here's something to consider:
http://www.jennifercluff.com/fluteloops08.htm
Whether or not you consider them to be in the "Gullible" catagory is your choice but using a different type of stopper system would pretty much diminish the possibility of having a bad cork seal.

I have a good quality Baroque flute from Bigio and I would like to try his stoppers and crowns at some point.
http://www.bigio.com/stoppersandcrowns.html

I did not say: The head joint was not tapered at the cork end. I know how some really fear that someone will actually try to insert the cork from that end. I said that it "becomes rather cylindrical at that point" Meaning that the taper is considerably less than around the emb. hole where the actual paraboloidal shape really exists.

Actually the "parabola" is only a construct of a mathematical anomaly. In reality headjoint tapers are based pretty much on linear functions. The "parabola" is a result of figuring cross sectional area. So acoustically you can refer to it as a parabola. It's mechanical function (which is the one we are discussing concerning cork removal and placement) is a straight linear taper....

My reasoning is that anyone who has made the 'mistake' of removing a cork plug at the crown end knows that it really isn't very difficult to remove a slightly loose cork from that end and that the metal disk does not drag on the metal of the head tube.

That is true of many flutes but not all. There are heajoint with higher rates of taper where the O.D. of stopper plates (at least the bottom one) come pretty close to being the same diameter of I.D. of the tube.

So, my meaning that there is a severe lessening of the taper at the cork end.

Like I said above that is not true...

If this lessening was not present at that point than any movement of the cork along the length of the cylinder will result in either a tightening of the cork seal (towards the crown) or a loosening of the cork seal(Towards the EH) and not merely a break in the seal from the change in location. If the taper was even slight, any designer in his right mind would not say to tighten the crown to adjust the position of the cork as in the above Brannen link for several reasons.

The tightening and loosening does occur, but you are forgetting that cork is elastic meaning it has a good wide range of compressability to account for the taper differences and remains air tight. (that's why it's been used for so many years...)

Rigid O ring type stoppers need to be measured and placed because their range of elastisity is hugely, significantly less and spread over a very small linear length (Cork length is about 5 to 8X greater in linear length area.)

When a cork is ruined (shrunk due to moisture damage) it does not have enough diameter for compressability in a wider range of the taper. A properly fit cork will remain tight in various locations of the taper but will be tighter where the taper is smaller. Either way the cork is fine if it is within it working tolerance of compressability for the location it must occupy...

It's that simple...AND that is why you can move it if the cork is fit properly..

The other final issue is that acoustically and for the sake of manufacture, there is no practical purpose to having that taper continue to the crown and mechanically there is every reason not to do so because it would gurantee that any fine tuning of the cork position as you yourself have prescribed would result in a bad seal or an overly tight cork which could actually cause the head joint to stretch.

For the sake of manufacture....what you suggest (which isn't true anyway) is not practical and makes it more difficult to manufacture and repair. ALL of the current tooling would demonstrate that as well as well as ALL the repair mandrels and techniques. If you even tried to use a cylindrical mandrel in that part of the flute....you would understand what I mean...

You are not going to use cork to stretch metal in this manner...that's silly...

Joe B

Joe I would love to see you post that stuff on the Galway board! You would probably get kicked off for not posting the same opinion as Galway though. That does happen time to time. My post never got posted on how I tried the breathing on the pads and it never worked. Hmm... I wonder why that is?

I have no idea why that is...But I avoid that list like the plague...I usually end up screaming and beating my head against the wall when technical stuff comes up, so for my own personal sanity, I only visit occassionally and stop reading when anything technical comes up for fear that I would start hitting the bottle....<G>

Speaking of the title of this thread....People who are great players should stick to teaching how to play because they are masters at that. We are greatly enriched when they can relate their methods of practice and techniques in that regard. But then this other stuff comes up,and there is more marketing baloney...hooey...tom-foolery... or choose your adjective of choice, in the flute world that it is has become absurd...

Some one came in once and was at a masterclass and the clinician told everyone to soak their headjoint in orange juice over night to improve their tone.....And then they come up with psuedo scientific mumbo jumbo to support their claim...You know there something in the citrus acids that react with the metal to cause the difference...

I hear this stuff all the time. I told them to drink the orange juice and spend more time practicing...

Joe B

I agree Joe, that's why I leave the techie topics to you with the technical expertise..

WOW!

My simple experience with a C foot has turned this thread into a highly technical and extremely interesting discussion. I am sure we are many here learning a lot out of it.

JoeB explanation about the better venting with a C foot and the technical limit of the Bb foot are very clear and this is much more than gullible. Thanks to JoeB and Bilbo...

I have almost decided to try moving the cork position. I guess I will not tell my teacher, she would not approve it, I am afraid. But the reasons given so far are very convincing.

Before doing that, I prefer to ask you this question:

What type of taper (linear, other (which)) has the Yamaha 600 EC headjoint? Were it linear, I could compute the internal tube diameter at the center of the blowhole(considering the tenon as cylindrical and measuring the internal diameter at the crown end; a linear taper would be easy to calculate at any point inside.

Or I could calculate it by measuring the external diameter at the desired HJ point and deducting from it twice the measured thickness of the tube.

Any of these two methods could be suitable for this measurement, short of having a set of bore disks?



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(Sad) Very sorry I did not include Micron in my thanks above...