I am not disagreeing at all to Microns statements as he has some very valid points, but I do not practice hours a day any more and still do not have problems with that slur. Like he said though, I could be just used to the extra work of it by now after playing many years. I have played on flutes with split E's and when they are working properly it is nice to have but I still see them as more of a nuisance to ME then anything. Either you like them or you don't. It is just like the C verses B foot debate.

I assert that for the AVERAGE flute player, a split E can be most welcome to make that third octave E respond as normally as an F or a G, WITHOUT effort additional to what those other notes require. Of course serious players get to a state where they are making that extra effort for individual notes, as required, without any longer being aware that they are doing it.

Maybe the average player should go back and learn to play an open G# flute. Then what do these average players do with the high F#?

The split E mechanism is WAY too much of a mechanical burden for just ONE stinkin' double vented note. For the "average" player a donut is just as effective without all that trouble and the hassles that come with it down the road on "average" flutes.

You've got a myriad of mechanism induced acoustical problems in the third register already with multiple fingering compromises. It's just the nature of the beast. If you learn to play "average" up there at all you are learning to do it correctly anyway lessening the playing problem. (That's why you practice)

To go and add a WHOLE FREAKIN' COMPLICATED MECHANISM THAT PROMOTES WEAR for one lousy note is excessive.

But hey, If people want it and are willing to deal with the problems that come with it down the road, I'm fix them when they start to cause problems...

Joe B

TIM

I have played all over the world and have seen lots of split e keys..

Yeah, I know. I was just making a joke since apparently Americans are too ignorant to have realized the necessity of a split E mech.

<Added>

That was another joke, by the way...

Amen to that Joe! Joe, I know this is a bit off subject but, do you know if you will be able to make the convention in Florida in Janurary? Hopefully Dennis and I are going and I would love to meet up with you.

Which convention Kara?

Joe B

A split E can be really nice for those slurs.
Now, for another can of worms: I have heard that the most useful 'extra' available on a flute is a C# trill key. This key makes several trills easier and sound better, and makes possible some good alternate fingerings.

I completely agree with that bit about C# trills. I simply love having one on my Tom Green....In fact, I plan to have it on any flute I buy in the future simply because it is SOOOOO useful.

Yeah... I hate those freakin split E's too.

Joe, I don't know all the details about the convention yet, I just know that it will be held in Florida state in February (not Jan.) 1-3. I will have to get more details on it from Dennis and will let you know.

in future, i plan to get a flute with c and b foot, g-a trill key, c# trill key, left hand low b lever, split e key, banana split key, heart rate monitor, mood ring headjoint crown and cholesterol monitor, I will write to the SIMBA people in the morning...

Ooh.. you could get a mood gemstone crown. Maybe I should start making some of those!

Also, in a discussion such as this, attempt at persuasion by use of aggressive, emotive language is hardly appropriate... "stinkin', freakin'"

Hardly, that's my personal opinion of which I am rather passionate.

For casual players, that High E will be played far more often that an F# or G#.

Well that's not exactly the point. And I don't see why people wouldn't be playing high F# and G# as an average player. F# is certaily just as common. (The split mechanism for that is even worse.)

I work on far more split E flutes than non-split-E. I think you grossly exaggerate hassles. They are easy to adjust, and otherwise present no hassles. Indeed, it means the the G keys have a regulating screw which facilitates G adjustment.

Adding more regulation points means more potential for things needing regulation and the possibility of them going out. And there are those that don't have regulation screws. Plus you usually have to adjust the key height in conjunction with the regulation. The extension lever is always out of adjustment and when things aren't right, the lost motion is just plain annoying. It is often not simple to remove that lost motion without needing to sometimes redo the heights on the whole (freakin' <G> ) instrument.

Now here's where I strongly disagree...

Theoretically it may produce a little more wear on the G key key pivots. However, for these players, the wear during decades of playing, will still be insignificant, and resulting sloppiness will be imperceptible compared with the built-in sloppiness of some brands e.g Pearl from Taiwan.

Theoretically nothing...The long lever produces a sawing action which wears at the king post bearing making the whole RH unstable and clanky. (The G pivots are not as much of an issue.) The F# hinge tube is often shortened on some models which introduces wobble to that key in a much shorter time. Except on the pearl where the bridge connects it as a solid key and the (stinkin' <G> ) hole ovalizes from the sawing action to the point where it's never stable unless you retrofit it with a steel bearing. There should be NO slopiness in the mechanism at all because it just feels lousy when there is...And due to the design and quality on an average flute that an average player is using, it's going become very prevelant.

I think you are unkindly misleading here, in your exaggeration of any problems. I have serviced hundreds if not thousands of split-E flutes over 40 years and can confidently say that any problems barely exist. (Unless you have split E in conjunction with in-line G.) That is why I say you exaggerate.

Then my confidence in you is a bit shaken...The designs of in line split E's are quite different and as a result dependent on any particular design, some are even much better. (but good luck finding one.) I service tons of split E's as well and they always require extra maintenance effort to keep them working at their best.

And FWIW, I don't like the feel of the extra mass associated with the E key. The mechanism should always "feel" invisible compared to a regular mechanism which is much more balanced in that regard. It a real art to balance the feel of the F/F#/ Bb combo to feel light and equal. Adding a Split E mechanism doubles the problem. It's a lot more to deal with.

So we completely disagree.

Joe B

(All "aggressive. emotive, persuasions" in this post have been "()ed" so that you may read them in either context!)

One more thing

Exactly. And for many players, the realities of life mean that they actually do very little practice. They are still flute players, not to be condemned to eternal struggles with that E, because they have not reached that lofty world of flute performance that you are part of.

Just because I'm not a high performance track star doesn't mean I need to rely on the use a Crutch to go for a walk.

The nature of flute playing is that you become a student of the instrument. That's the challenge. If you believe you need a special mechanism to avoid being condemned to eternal struggles as a result...then I have a mechanism that you can buy which will allow you to triple tongue low C's, triple forte.

Being a flute player IS an eternal struggle by it's very nature.. NO ONE achieve's perfection. It takes practice and talent. At best, one can only maiximize the full potential of the talent that one has. But that is why we are flute players, because as a group we SHARE that eternal struggle..

If I may share my mantra..

http://www.langemusic.com/Articles/flutist.htm

Joe B

For what it is worth, I completely agree with everything Joe has to say. Saying that, I would feel very comfortable learning any repair skills from him. I enjoy reading the two sides though, it is always very interesting and Micron has a true art with words.

It really is odd, that both of us with so much experience in the field, have found things to be so different.

Not really, It's just that we see things differently. I really am too tired to go point by point which is too much after a long day, so I will try to summarize and combine as much as possible and hopefully not lose context...

If split E is as bad as you are making out, then thousands of players all over the world must be having huge problems with it.....Very few common singable songs (or hymns) go beyond F

Well then yes, things are much different in your part of the world..

(In engineering terms, a "precision running fit - RC3") ....But I thought you were perfectly capable, as I am, of putting flute regulators into a reliable state......

Let me re-introduce you to another unofficial engineering (or should I say design) acronym to explain more what I mean....

KISS...Keep It Simple Stupid..The more complex you make a design the more potential it has for problems occurring. It's not a question of adjusting regulators, It's about eliminating layers that are not necessary and thus eliminating potential sources of problems. Without a Split E, there is no need to add regulation points. I prefer a more simplistic design with less sources of potential problems.

FWIW? No, I don't think that it is worth much. That really is clutching at straws. On ANY flute, there is a wide variety of finger pressures that need to be exerted.

hee,hee...clutching...punny!

You miss the point. The wear from the Split E arm is from the extension displaced so far from the axis. That changes the equation in both feel and wear because you add a lot of leverage when compared to the placement of spring cradles relative to the axis. ALL the spring scenarios you mention are not the same because the spring cradles pretty much operate based on their similar locations off the axis.

And then there's the kid who bent the lever arm, starts squeezing harder, tilts the lower G key and bends the steel too exerting even more stress for wear on the king post. (sarcasm) But no, that hasn't added any more work or potential for more repair and maintenance or stability. (/sarcasm) We are not talking about pro flutes and pro players (who also do this) but average players. But like you said, they must not do that in your part of the world

Now you are being silly.

Well I try to do that at least once a day..

Can you provide a video clip of that passage in question from "Three Little Maids From School", at speed, with blemish-free A-E slurs, where the flute definitely has no split E? That would impress me.

Well I would have to record myself playing it for you..<G>

Joe B