Re: B flat flutes

    
Re: B flat flutes    13:12 on Friday, January 9, 2009          

AndyMan
(13 points)
Posted by AndyMan

HI Music Man 944,
Thanks so much for your comments.
I do not have a C flute here to compare it to, but based on photos I looked at on the internet and seeing 5 keys (notes) below the right hand pinky keys... I'm thinking it just may be a B flat flute. It also measures 9.25" from where it attaches to the main body part of the flute. I hope this helps in the explanation.
Thanks for your help.
AM


Re: B flat flutes    17:11 on Friday, January 9, 2009          

musicman_944
(257 points)
Posted by musicman_944

Measure the main body section by itself. Mine C flute body section is about 14.25". I have a B foot and that section is just a little over 6.5". If your foot joint is measuring 9.25", then that is definitely longer than a standard foot.

Take a good look at the foot joints in this link:
http://flutesmith.com/flute-options/b-C-foot.html

The top foot is a C foot and the bottom is a B foot (like mine). Does yours look like one of these? You said yours has 5 keys and I'm trying to figure out if you have more keys on your foot joint than these examples. It's possible that you might have a C flute with a Bb foot. These are very rare, but they do exist.


Re: B flat flutes    19:04 on Friday, January 9, 2009          

AndyMan
(13 points)
Posted by AndyMan

HI Music Man 944,
Thanks for your prompt reply. The main body section (alone) measures 15. The total length of this flute including the mouth piece section pushed all the way in) is 32.5"

I checked the link you emailed, and looked at the charts. This Flute has one more key (to the right of the third key on the bottom chart) the fifth key would not be visible with this view, but is located just in line("above")the grouping of right pinky keys, rotated 90 degrees from the other 4 keys. Thanks for your willingness to solve this B fat mystery with me. If I could attach a digital photo I would. Hope this helps.

Thanks & B/rgds
AM


Re: B flat flutes    20:59 on Friday, January 9, 2009          

musicman_944
(257 points)
Posted by musicman_944

Well then you definitely have an extra key. It would seem that you have a flute with a Bb foot! I'm not sure if the flute is in the key of C or not. 15" is a bit longer than most but that can vary some from manufacturer to manufacturer. For example, one manufacturer might make the body a bit longer and the head joint a bit shorter, but the total length of each is the same. In your case though, the entire flute is longer because of the extra key, but that doesn't conclusively determine that it is or is not a C flute.

The way I see it it's possible that you have a C flute with a Bb foot or you could possibly have a Bb flute with a Bb foot. Either way, it's definitely somewhat unique. If you have access to a digital tuner, play a C on the flute. If it shows that the pitch is a C, it's a C flute; if it indicates Bb, it's a Bb flute.

I'd love to see a few photos. Since you can't attach photos to the messages here, could you upload a few to http://www.yousendit.com/ ? That's a free site where you can upload files and pictures. After uploading, it will give you back a link that you can copy & paste into a message here.

For example, here's a link to a photo of my flutes:
http://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBTZEU5dENwcFdGa1E9PQ

If you have a yardstick or tape measure, I's love to see a picture with the flute assembled and layed along side the ruler. That way I can compare that with mine and possibly figure out what you have.


Re: B flat flutes    06:29 on Saturday, January 10, 2009          

Bilbo
(1340 points)
Posted by Bilbo

Measuring the body joint isn't necessarily a good comparison. If you measure the body only the length may be different even in comparing the same brand. My flute teacher's older Haynes has a shorter body and a longer head joint than mine for example. The head joints may also vary in the distance from the emb. hole to the stopper crown as this doesn't necessarily have to affect the tuning.
A better way to measure a flute and to determine the acoustics may be from the inside of the stopper to a standard point such as the middle of a D# or C key, or even from the middle of the blowing holes to the foot end. The length of the tube's cavity is the determining factor as to the pitch of the instrument. Another means: If you align two flutes that are assembled and placed side by side, you can measure from the emb. hole to the key positions while aligning the lowest keys. A flute pitched in Bb measured in this way may be a good ~2.75 inches longer overall than a C flute.~just an off-handed guess.

<Added>

that distance is assuming that both flutes have the same type of foot joint.
C flutes have been made with D, C#, C, B and Bb foot joints.
I believe that there has been a used Haynes C Concert Flute for sale at Flute World with a Bb Foot for ages.

http://www.fluteworld.com/index.php?action=prod&wart=49182


Re: B flat flutes    09:38 on Saturday, January 10, 2009          

AndyMan
(13 points)
Posted by AndyMan

Hi Musicman944, Suzie & Bilbo,
Thanks you all for your feed back and expertise. I like musicman-944's idea of taking some digital photos next to a yard stick/tape measure and uploading them to "box.net" or "yousendit.com" for further review. I will take some photos later today and paste the link so, if you wish, you can take a peek.
Thanks & B/rgds
AM


Re: B flat flutes    15:43 on Saturday, January 10, 2009          

AndyMan
(13 points)
Posted by AndyMan

HI Micron,

I just measured from the center of the thumb hole to the center of what I believe (being sax player) is the C hole (second inline key) on the foot section of the flute. The measurement is 12.75" from point to point. Based on all the feedback and info to date... sounds like a B Flat flute. I could try playing a "C' scale with my B flat Tenor sax and then try playing the same scale with the flute to see if the notes are the same. (I think I have a flute fingering chart some where so I can do the correct fingering for "C' on the flute).

Thanks for your suggestion in trying to solve this riddle.
I'm going into a recording session now, but later will take the digital photos for a look see.
B/rgds
AM

<Added>

Here are the links to two photos I uploaded to "Box.net".
Clicking on them should take you directly to the photos for download. Feel free to look and see what you think.

1- http://www.box.net/shared/6d6lfvqdk6

Full length shot of Emerson ELD Flute w/ Yard stick

2- http://www.box.net/shared/q0n6dg78yq

Shows some of the engravings on the body and Mouth piece

(Sorry for the poor quality of these shots, I can get better shot on Monday, if need be)

AM


Re: B flat flutes    07:41 on Sunday, January 11, 2009          

Bilbo
(1340 points)
Posted by Bilbo

My Haynes is ~25" from the crown to the C key.
Your flute in that image is ~27" to the same distance. It is a lower pitched flute (most likely in Bb) and it has a Bb foot joint as well.

If you have a tuner, I'd say that the pitch that sounds when you finger a C is going to be Bb. So, you could probably fit into Bb Trpt. or Bb Clar. sections with ease.

Check this out:

The ALTUS “Flute D’Amour”

http://www.altusflutes.eu/nc/en/produkte/newssingle-product/datum/2008/02/13/altus-flute-damour-1009se.html

They can be made to any size of course but this Co. has Bb or A in their list.


Re: B flat flutes    10:31 on Sunday, January 11, 2009          

Account Closed
(3248 points)
Posted by Account Closed

That is not a B flat flute, it is in the key of C with a B flat FOOTJOINT.


Re: B flat flutes    11:08 on Sunday, January 11, 2009          

AndyMan
(13 points)
Posted by AndyMan

HI Kara,
Are you referring to Bilbo's Flute or my Flute? Or both? I'm a wee bit confused.
AM


Re: B flat flutes    13:28 on Sunday, January 11, 2009          

Bilbo
(1340 points)
Posted by Bilbo

Hi,
I don't think that Kara understood my post. I will retype the important part with a better explanation.
"My Concert C Haynes is ~25" from the crown to the C key.
Your flute in that image is ~27" to the same distance. It is a lower pitched flute (most likely in Bb) and it has a Bb foot joint as well."

The length of the pipe will determine the pitch of the tone that is played.

Your flute isn't in the key of C. For a definitive answer, check this with a chromatic tuner and see what note you get.


Re: B flat flutes    13:35 on Sunday, January 11, 2009          

musicman_944
(257 points)
Posted by musicman_944

AndyMan,

Looking at your full length picture with the yardstick, I compared it with my C flute. I measured mine from the center of the middle c key (at the 12.5" mark) to the center of the D key (at 22.5"). On your flute, the distance between those two keys is 10". On my flute, the distance is 8.75". So, it seems pretty certain that yours is a Bb flute with a Bb foot. Definitely a unique instrument.


Re: B flat flutes    16:02 on Sunday, January 11, 2009          

AndyMan
(13 points)
Posted by AndyMan

Bilbo, Micron, Thanks for your feed back.

The bore of the foot section (inside diameter) measures 21mm.

The question now remains what is the value of this flute? Any ideas?
AM


Re: B flat flutes    19:54 on Sunday, January 11, 2009          

Bilbo
(1340 points)
Posted by Bilbo

Well, the value of anything is "How much you can get from somebody."
Perhaps, a comparable replacement value depends upon some things. I posted a link for a company that makes one. I'd check on their price. An Emerson instrument isn't generally all that expensive of a flute but this one has a solid silver tube + a Bb Foot. I'd look for Emerson Alto flute prices and it may be around that amount if they made one of these Flute d'Amore still. You could also ask the company: http://www.emersonflutes.com/content/products.php

Bottom line, It's rarity doesn't necessarily increase the value if you can't sell it. For example, old upright pianos aren't usually worth much, nor are 100 year old wooden flutes. Another issue to consider is the cost of repair/pad replacement when it would be needed and Micron or Joe B here can give you a better idea on that for sure.

<Added>

I just found the Emerson Altos at Flute World online. The Silver tube versions are about 2,500- 3,000 USD. Your's might be around that price new IF they made them today.


Re: B flat flutes    20:42 on Sunday, January 11, 2009          

AndyMan
(13 points)
Posted by AndyMan

HI Micron, Bilbo, Kara, Musicman_944 & Susie,

You have all been very, very helpful and generous with you expertise. I must say, I know a little bit more about flutes now than when I started out, especially the one I have. There are several woodwind specialty shops here in NYC. At least now when I walk into them and speak of this flute for sale or trade, I won't be clueless.

B/rgds
AndyMan


   








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