My question to you folks is this: where is the line you can draw in regards to referring to yourself as a "professional"?

That's a tough question to answer definitively, because there are different contexts to consider. First there's the dictionary definition: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/PROFESSIONAL

Someone who earns income from a profession can, in the strictest sense, be called a professional. That, however, does not necessarily imply that they behave in a professional manner (as you have implied).

In the music instrument repair industry, there is no certification required for someone to call themselves a professional repair technician. Some technicians belong to the National Association of Band Instrument Repair Technicians (NAPBIRT). I suspect that all of its members consider themselves professionals. While NAPBIRT does have standards for membership, it cannot truly police the industry to ensure that each and every member meets the highest standards of repair.

Another slant on this is that some techs repair all instruments, while others specialize in a subset (i.e. woodwinds, brass, or even single instruments). Some techs work only on pro-level instruments, while others work only on student-level instruments, and some do it all, at least to some degree. For example, I consider myself a woodwind specialist. I primarily repair flutes, clarinets, and saxes. On those, I will take on almost any needed repair from student through professional level instruments. While I also have the tools and knowledge to do some brass work, I will only do basic brass repairs (i.e free stuck slides, simple dent removal, etc.) and only on student or intermediate-level instruments. I refer pro-level brass repairs to other brass specialists, because I know that others can do a better job on those and I know my limitations.

Now, to address your example, antique wood flute restoration is quite a specialty. Many professional repair techs don't really get into doing that type of repair. Even if they do that type of work, the cost is likely quite high because it is time consuming work billed by the hour. Consider this analogy: In any given area, there are probably hundreds of masons qualified to perform brick and mortar repair work. On the other hand, I suspect that there are very few masons who would be qualified to do restoration work on a pyramid in Egypt. It's the same sort of situation for antique flute repair.

As far as I know, Artley wasn't affiliated with Haynes whatsoever as indicated in that auction and $275 for a student silver plated flute needing pads is a ripoff!

Regarding the Artley Commercial flute, Artley flutes started around 1930 and actually made some very nice instruments for a number of years. The ad did not state that the Artley was made by Haynes, it stated that it was similar. While I agree that comparing it to a Haynes Commercial model is an exaggeration, many early Artleys were actually quite nice. The Artley Wilkins model was supposedly created to compete with Haynes. Whether this particular flute is worth $275 or not is debatable, but who knows? Maybe someone is willing to pay that much for it as a collectable. I guess we'll see when the auction ends. BTW, Artley was never owned by Armstrong. C.G. Conn bought Artley in 1969. I'm not sure what year Conn bought Armstrong. Conn was later sold to UMI in the 1980s. Steinway bought UMI/Conn around 2000 and merged it with Selmer in 2003. Through consolidation of the product lines over the years, some of the low-end Artleys and Armstrongs were made on the same assembly lines and they shared some parts. Eventually, Artley flutes were discontinued.

Hopefully, some of the other professional repair techs that frequent this board will offer their insights to the issue.

I think the words Caveat Emptor are appropriate here.

I think you misread the text of the Artley. It does not claim this to be associated with Haynes. It says:

Commercial model flute with hand-finished, oval embouchure. Reminds us of the commercial Haynes flutes from the 1940's and 50's.

Reminds someone of a commercial model haynes and being associated with are not the same thing. I understand what you are saying but that is not what is represented here.

Vintage flutes Repair/restoration is a tricky term and debate abounds as to what and how certain things should be done.

As to professional. Plumbers are licensed. And I have used pro plumbers once that I will never use again. Professional simply means that you derive at least 50% of your income from band instrument repair. At least that is NAPBIRT's definition. NAPBIRT is an organization whose primary purpose is promoting the craft through education.
There is no "police force".

As a consumer caveat emptor is the operating clause. Investigate, check, and then utilize. There are people who are quite happy with work that is unsatisfactory to another. Get opinions from people you trust who have had direct experience.

If you can't and you do it anyway and it turns out bad, well, chalk it up to experience and move on.

Joe B
(wearing two hats today)
Pearl Flutes
Vice President of NAPBIRT

I have to go with the "As a consumer caveat emptor is the operating clause."
comment here as well. It is a shame that people misrepresent themselves or turn out shoddy workmanship.....sometimes very intentionally I must say. There is always a fine line between advertising and misrepresentation. and it's often crossed.

Reminds us of the commercial Haynes flutes from the 1940's and 50's.

I think is crossing that line because one thinks of the Haynes line of flutes as being one of the best and juxtaposing the name Artley with Haynes favorably is trying to lead the customer down a path. Of course the other underlying issue is that Haynes was making "commercial instruments" that weren't so top-shelf in quality. Many companies have had to resort to this off and on. At any rate, anybody that knows anything about Artley would read right past that line and throw that thought into the dumpster for sure.

In the case of the flute emb hole. It probably suffices to qualify as 'fixed'. in a court of law but it's not done well. I would be as disappointed as you on that one.

I just had my Haynes overhauled5 months ago by a top pro in the area (who BTW does the first chair of a local major Orch's flute repairs) and within one month's time, I've had 5 keys cramp up where I had to oil/take apart the mech. on my own. -not totally pleased with that investment but then again, I had Haynes overhaul my flute the last time and I wasn't totally happy because they completely disregarded my instructions that I had sent.


~bilbo
N.E. Ohio

Bilbo wrote:

they completely disregarded my instructions that I had sent.

Just out of curiosity...what did you request?

Joe B

Just out of curiosity...what did you request?

Ho Joe, that was of course about ten years ago but the primary one was that I wanted a dent looked after on the head joint that I felt could have been done only with their mandrel. Since then, I think that their problem with this is apparently that they had no clue as to what mandrel (Out of like 150 of them) would have been used. I would think though that their repair tech. could have communicated with me in some way to let me know their position but didn't.

~bilbo
N.E. Ohio

<Added>

oops, I didn't really mean to mistype "Ho Joe". I really intended - Hi Joe.

I understand Bilbo.

Sounds like that happened not long after John died. Everyone was pretty devastated for awhile over there and things like this did happen.

Joe B

yes, I can imagine Joe.
As a matter of fact, I thin that it was right in 2000 because that is when I bought my Yammy 684 HHV. What I can say is that the pad seal was solid and the the mech. was working fine. I didn't like the key bumpers on the original setup from 1981-2 or the overhaul in 2000 because they were hard and clanked in both directions on the foot.

Excuse my ramble and I'm not a flute player or flute repairer, but I think what I have to say applies.

Different people have different knowledge and expectations. This applies to the customer and the repair person. Even though there are many 'organizations' out there intended to help; many of these organizations market their "gold shield" to benefit the provider and not necessarily the customer. Examples of this are ASE mechanical repair, The Musicians Union, AAA, Piano Technicians Guild, etc. Although many good people are associated with these groups, not all who are associated are what I would call professional. I can't tell you the number of times I have gone to a union gig to find a number of people who can't play in tune, much less with a good tone or some don't even know their scales.

That said, there are also providers who scale their work to the customer; or what they think of the customers expectations and knowledge. I work with one instrument maker who does fantastic work on my instruments and I am very happy with the work. However, I have seen work he has done on other peoples instruments and it is no where near the quality he does on mine. I know another repair technician who does overall very good work, but again, when I've seen his work on others instruments it is not up to par with the work he does on mine. Now, when I refer people to him I insist that they tell him they are a friend of mine and I call him telling him to expect this person. Now the work I see on my referrals is top notch, but what I see on others - who are happy with the work - is sub par to me.

It is worth it to gain as much knowledge of what is going to be done to your instrument as possible. As mentioned above you need to find people you trust and have similar tastes with, BEFORE you are in need of work. What I have done is get restaurant recommendations from people. If they think Roy's is good service and great food and when I go there I agree. I know I can trust them on their expectations of service and quality. If someone says Gina's is a great place and I go there and find service is rude, slow, and the food is simialr to what I get out of a box at home, I probably won't like their repair recomendation either. Quality is juxtaposable between all services (food, clothing, tailors, and instrument repair). It is better to drop $60 - $120 on a meal to find out now rather than all of a sudden need a recommendation and spend $900 to find out your instrument is now in worse and in uncorrectable shape for the remainder of its playing life.

As Bilbo mentioned above I have had to re-work some repairs on my friends instruments from time to time. Fortunately I have the knowledge, experience, and proper tools. The majority of people do not.