I would like to have a go at repadding a couple flutes. The first is an older Armstrong closed-hole student model. The second is an open-hole DeFord. I would like not to use the puffy (student) pads which require clamping/baking - I'm looking for firmer (intermediate) pads which I will shim for coverage, even for the Armstrong.

If my question makes any sense, I'm looking for recommendations on where to get pads and which product line. For example, I see "woven felt" flute pads at MusicMedic. I also see many different lines of pads at ferrees tools (B7, B8, B26, B29, B30, B31, B38, some being needle felt, some being woven felt, none apparently being open-hole - they sell a punch set to convert them). I don't need to know exactly what size pads for each flute. I will disassemble the flutes to determine the thicknesses and diameters. I'll order shims, shellac, felt, cork etc. too.

I have purchased and read the Burkart-Phelan flute manual, and I'm seriously considering the Landell Flute padding course. I have a little experience with minor repairs, and I actually repadded a Bundy when I was very young and naive. I may not end up successful, but I'd like to try it, so suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim

If you want to use firm pads like pro flutes, you want to get pads made with needle felt. Woven felt is softer like those used on student flutes. Ferrees B7, B8, or B26 are made from firmer needle felt.

You might also look at J.L.Smith's Lucien deluxe pads:


Smith also sells pads that are pre-punched for open-hole flutes. However, if you plan on doing a lot of repadding, it makes more sense to order the hole punch. Without the punch, you have to stock twice as many pads to accommodate both closed and open-hole flutes. A lower inventory cost for pads will more than cover the cost of the punch in the long run.

When you ask about pad preferences, you'll get as many answers as there are flute repair techs. You really have to try different brands and suppliers to see what fits your preferences. Ferrees, Music Medic, J.L.Smith, and Votaw are all reputable companies that sell quality pads. Some of them may be willing to send a few samples for you to try.

For experimenting like this, go with a woven felt 2.5mm thickness.

That should give you enough room to practice shimming on this type of flute and experiment with the amount of heating clamping and how these processes react.

After you get better with practice you can move to thinner/firmer pads.

Ferree's B38 is a pretty standard version of what is in most Student flutes. You can order these from Smith or Ferree's or lots of places. The vast majority of these come from the same manufacturer anyway (pisoni)

Music medic's Precision pads are a different supplier I think. Ask Curt, he'll tell you where they come from. I can ask him if you want me to.

I personally prefer Pisoni made pads..Have tried the other pad manufacturers and always go back to Pisoni made pads.

The main importance is how the diameter fits in the cup. Since most Manufacturers use Pisoni pads, the diameter fit is quite good. There is always some variance though, and I'm sure other pad manufacturers have sized things a bit better over the years. (or they wouldn't be around anymore!)

Joe B
Executive VP of Napbirt
Napbirt Regional/National flute repair clinician
Instructor Napbirt University Flute Repair courses.
Vermont Guild of Flutemaking
And Product specialist for Pearl Flutes
(yes I wear many repair hats)

This is exactly the type of information I was looking for - thanks!

I see on the votawtool.com site that they offer conventional stick shelac, but also hot glue recommended for padding. Any thoughts on those?

Jim

You can use either, But I find hot melt a lot easier and less brittle depending on the type of stick shellac. Some have a higher melting point and set more quickly than hot melt. Hot melt usually gives you a bit more working time.

Joe B

One small key-pad came off last time, I used shellac that music-medic provided, it oozed out, and the pad became brownish all over, argh..so ugly now.

You might try George's Glue. It's a hot melt glue that's particularly good - strong but not brittle. You can buy it in pellets or sticks. You can get it from J. L.Smith.

Thanks Musicman and Micron

Ok, I've been talked out of the firmer pads. I can't tell from the JLSmith website how thick the pads are. I'm guessing what I want is probably the Lucien Deluxe, Yellow, Thin version (312, 313), and an assortment of shims. Sound ok?

One of the problems the student Armstrong has is that the pads are hitting hard in the back and there are no shims installed - like the pads swelled a little. If the pads were thinner and shimmed, I could probably remove some shim thickness. So... I think thick pads would be bad.

We can talk about corks and felts later :-)

Thanks for your patience!
Jim

The 312/313's are much thinner (2mm)and pressed. Not a good choice for someone who is just starting out. You will need to do tonehole work to use this pad on an Armstrong flute with any success. Download the catalog in PDF and you can get the specs

http://www.jlsmithco.com/c.515391/site/JLS_Catalog.pdf

The 303/311 is thicker (2.8mm) and would normally be the standard replacement for an armstrong (like Ferree's B38)

The 2.5mm pad is a bit harder to find in woven felt. You can find it from Ferree's in needle felt which may be an adequate compromise (B26)

Ferree's specs are here:
http://www.ferreestools.com/b7,%20b8,%20b26_flutepads.htm

For practice purposes I would try the Ferree's B26 if you are finding the other pads too thick.

Joe B

Just for fun, I checked one pad on the Armstrong's foot joint (was leaking anyway). The back of the pad is labeled "Premium deluxe". The pads are white. A quick search of the internet found that these are Pisoni pads. This particular pad measures:
0.755 in. dia. (19.177mm)
0.130" thick. (3.3mm)
The inside diameter of the cup is 0.760 in.

The thickness is curious. I found them listed available in 2 and 2.5mm.

Also, just for fun, I spent some time shimming and adjusting and managed to improve the situation. Probably still needs a little more shim on the front, but it does play.

Other than the footjoint, I didn't really find leaks. It sounds REALLY dead. The head cork is moderately loose, and the plating is in really bad condition on the front wall of the embouchure hole and the cork plate.

Partial shims...can of worms... agreed, and I probably have about .004 in worth in there. At one point I did have leaks where the pad "bent" over the edge of the shims. I'm a little confused about measuring 3.3mm thickness on the pad, but I guess it means 2.5 or even 2.6 or 2.9 would easily fit, requiring some full shims.
Jim

You said the pad measured 3.3mm thickness. That's thicker than most standard pads. Some possibilities: the pad felt is swollen from moisture exposure, there might be a shim stuck or glued to the pad backing, or you didn't calibrate (zero) your calipers (if that's what you used to measure the pad) before taking the measurement. Joe's right that 2.8mm should be a good match for an Armstrong.

I have repadded a few older Armstrongs. I have found that the pads tended to be a little thicker. I think the key cups are deeper. I just used shims to shim them up.

I have an old 1969 model Armstrong 80B. Overhauling it and repadding it was quite an adventure. I wanted to replace the grommets with nylon and found that the grommets were different sizes by .01 mm. "lots of fun" I ordered a set of grommets by taking one measurement and found out that the measurement only applied to one key. So I measured another key and ordered more grommets. I found out that that grommet fit two keys but not the rest. I measured the last two keys and ended up ordering two different sized grommets. I am wondering if the flute was a Frankenstein flute and assembled from a bunch of different flutes, but who knows. I have never had the same problems with any modern open hole flutes. Every other open hole flute that I have worked on has had consistent measurements.

When you go to work on the Deford, measure everything three times so you won't have to go through what I went through.

Have fun.

I know, but I have never seen one like this!

LOL