I'm having to start over from scratch on the flute because we've discovered my articulation was all wrong. The reason for this is that apparently I pronounce the letter "T" differently from everybody else in the world. Most normal people do so by putting the tip of the tongue behind the upper teeth (just touching the roof of the mouth) and use that to regulate the air. I put the tip of my tongue behind my bottom teeth, and use the flat part of my tongue against the roof of my mouth to regulate the air flow. So I've been tonguing the flute the same way, and only just discovered the variance. My flute teacher says that in 30 years of teaching, she's never seen or heard of anyone with my situation. Not what I really want to hear!
Changing my tongue position messes up my embouchure, so I'm really back to square one. I should note I have a teardrop lip which gives me a slightly different embouchure, which is also something that my teacher rarely deals with.
Has anyone had or heard of a similar situation to mine? Or am I truly unique in all the world? Am I crazy to be trying to learn the flute under these circumstances?

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And yes - when I speak, my "T" sounds perfectly normal - you can't hear the difference. I'm told this is quite difficult for other people to do!

A few actual teachers here may have lot to say about you supposed problem.

I am lucky that I have a teacher flexible enough to value things more by the results than by the theory and its mechanics. If your "T" cannot be distinguished from other "Ts" and you can tongue fast enough, IMHO it is not such a big problem and you should not feel you are back to case one. This is always something too hard to tell any student.

Now if you tongue in a too special way, you should verify it does not interfere with double tonguing, as you will need this technique sooner or later.

. Have you any possibility of asking for a second opinion (another teacher, or a professional or well advanced player?

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Please take in account that "T" and most other letters are pronounced quite differently, depending of the language you speak. In Spanish (my mother tongue), the "T" does not sound as in "Tea" in English" but as in the first part of the word "take". It does not cause any problem for my tonguing; I think I do tongue with the tip of the tongue more in my lower teeth than in the upper ones.

My teacher does not tongue with a "T", more with a "du" and even this varies a lot, depending in the style and expression she wants to give to the phrase.

I was considering this message and I am curious from the original poster if they are moving their jaw when they use their tongue in this way.

~bilbo
N.E. Ohio

Unfortunately, you will indeed have to re-learn all of this.

I come from a position of experience, since I had a similar, though not identical problem.
After playing for 10 years in school, then putting flute aside, I began playing again later in life with a college-level wind ensemble. This time around, I realized that I needed lessons, and worked very hard to improve my tone. 6 years later, I had finally developed a lovely, rich tone comparable to what a college-level flutist should have.
Then, our music director chose several pieces in one term that required double-tonguing. I had an extremely hard time with it, because if I had to double-tongue, the tone came out dreadfully harsh and very sharp.
I analyzed what I was doing within my mouth and discovered that to get good tone, I was resting the tip of my tongue against my lower lip. To double-tongue, I was pulling the tongue away from the lip and tonguing against the back of my teeth. To do so made it sound terrible.
This was SERIOUSLY distressing. I realized that I did have to quit placing my tongue on the back of my lower lip. To do so made the tone almost uncontrollable (my tuner didn't know if I was playing a flat G or a sharp F!). I would be 40 cents sharp one day, and 40 cents flat the next. And the flute sounded like a bunch of angry bees.
It took about 6 weeks of hard practice, sometimes split to twice per day, to fix the problem. If I wasn't able to practice for a day or two (I get migraine headaches so I sometimes have to go to bed for 24 or 36 hours) I felt like I was starting over from the beginning.
It was really satisfying to finally get the embouchure right, though.

I have tried to duplicate what you say you are doing within your mouth. If your tongue is on your lower teeth, are you actually making the articulation with the center of your tongue against the roof of your mouth? This is exactly what I was doing, and it works just fine until you have to double-tongue or articulate very fast. The air has to be stopped, then started within your mouth. Most people's T comes from stopping the air with tongue behind upper teeth. The only way I can see to stop the air if the tip of your tongue is against your lower teeth, is with the center of your tongue against the roof of your mouth.

I would suggest that if you have any major tests, concerts or recitals in the next six weeks or so, don't try to change things until you are done with them. That will take a lot of pressure and worry off. But DO make the effort to create a proper embouchure. It is worth it!

Tibbiecow,
Yes, precisely - it's the center of my tongue and against the roof of my mouth. Glad to hear you found it fixable.

Bilbo - when I pronounce the letter "T" either way, no jaw movement. When I articulate with center of my tongue against the roof of my mouth, no jaw movement. When I try to articulate the "new" (for me) way, there's massive jaw movement. The reason for this is that I've been wedging my tongue against the back of my lower teeth as part of my embouchure. So the tip needs to move from all the way down their all the way up top, and back down again, which is slow and moves everything and screws up tone.

I'm hoping that by just practicing this a lot, I'll find a new tongue position that doesn't cause so my disruption, but it's all a wing and a prayer for now.

My one luxury is that as an adult amateur doing this as a hobby, I have no tests, concerts or recitals to schedule around. Given that it sounds like this will get increasingly critical when I get to double-tonguing, I'll see if I can rewire my technique around this.

Thanks for the thoughts - still welcome comments from anybody else who has wrestled with this or a similar problem.

"Bilbo - when I pronounce the letter "T" either way, no jaw movement. When I articulate with center of my tongue against the roof of my mouth, no jaw movement. When I try to articulate the "new" (for me) way, there's massive jaw movement. The reason for this is that I've been wedging my tongue against the back of my lower teeth as part of my embouchure. So the tip needs to move from all the way down their all the way up top, and back down again, which is slow and moves everything and screws up tone.

I'm hoping that by just practicing this a lot, I'll find a new tongue position that doesn't cause so my disruption, but it's all a wing and a prayer for now."

Well, My take is that:
1)The real issue with playing music is what you can hear-or what you aren't hearing ....for that matter. So if you don't hear any difference then there may not be one OR you aren't a good judge of what's happening. Try recording yourself if you can and comparing to a good professional recording.

2) Are you going to be able to develop as much speed and flexibility as possible in your articulation/embouchure technique to be pleased with what you hear?

Remember that there is more than one way to articulate.
Some place the tip of the tongue against the back of the lips when they stop the sound/air flow. Some use behind the teeth.
Your teeth should be far apart when you are playing. = Jaw down. The tongue shouldn't be in the way of the airflow and if it's behind the bottom teeth, it's not part of your embouchure (Lips-airstream formation).

So relative to speed. I was told that a good average speed for single tonguing is 4 16th notes at about 120 on the metronome. That's about 8 notes per second. You'd want to have them clear and short throughout your entire range. If they get fuzzy on the low notes it may be caused by your embouchure, tongue or your flute pads.
Relative to moving the jaw when the tongue moves...it's not necessary. Think of this as an experiment of sorts. When you do this experiment, try to change only one parameter n your tests. Or, try to not move your jaw. Only your tongue. same holds true for the lips. Only move the tongue. Otherwise, you may think that one thing is causing you troubles when it may be the other or a combination.

So, try the "French" (behind the lips -not through the lips) articulation if you wish. It works as good as behind the teeth for many when they get the hang of it. For some it's hard to master and they their tongue is overpowering or they drool. It takes a very light tip of the tongue placed low behind the lips. Using the tip of the tongue is generally believed to be faster or cleaner than the back or middle of the tongue with the tip anchored and placing it at the very place where it most efficiently stops the outflow of air is thought to be better.

For me, tonguing/articulating in this way (against the roof of my mouth) did not work when I had to add speed. I just couldn't get to any kind of speed, I'd say I lost it with sixteenth notes at quarter note=85 or so.

Another consideration is that most people's tongues DO move around inside their mouths to influence tone. You may hear (or your teacher may know) of some describing an openness in the throat, to get a big, round tone. (And not just for flute, but for voice, brass, other woodwinds.) I find my best tone now (for long notes) when my tongue is at the base of my lower teeth, and the back of my throat opened as much as can be. I have also noticed, while driving in a semi-truck (lorry, for those UK folks!) with its Jake-brake (exhaust brake) on- which makes a LOT of noise, I hear a fuzzy roar in my ears. Changing the inside of my mouth affects the pitch of that fuzzy roar, and having my throat open and my tongue at the base of my bottom teeth gives the lowest pitch, for what that is worth. (Yes I usually bring earplugs!)

It sounds like you will need to become very aware of just exactly what is moving and where, before you can correct it. Once again, I think that you will be able to do this, and will be delighted with the final results.

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I also expect that you'll hear from Micron, who is a very talented player and repair tech who went through something similar.

"I have also noticed, while driving in a semi-truck (lorry, for those UK folks!) with its Jake-brake (exhaust brake) on- which makes a LOT of noise, I hear a fuzzy roar in my ears. Changing the inside of my mouth affects the pitch of that fuzzy roar, and having my throat open and my tongue at the base of my bottom teeth gives the lowest pitch, for what that is worth. (Yes I usually bring earplugs!)"

Now TC from this description, Should I assume that you are saying that the location of your tongue inside your mouth affects your perception of tone quality in your ears? Could this have to do with jaw position also?