I just don`t know where to start, to try to improve on this baby...check it out.
http://www.jamesmorrison.com.au/images/dig-trum.jpg

You must have to earth something to somewhere, so where does it plug into?

Well.......bobert...couldn`t have said it better myself. Um, yeah well people around here seem to have some thing going, that they are better than anyone else here :?
???? Don`t know exactly why.

..except I don`t agree totally that lacquer kills the sound. And a great player can get many sounds out of one horn. But the general charateristics are there.

Is that a midi horn?

hi, bonnie. i`m also a 15 year old trumpet player. its the best instrument out there!

on the subject on which tumpets play the best, while the tyoe of trumpet plays a factor, let us not forget that the player`s skill is a bigger factor. in my opinon, it depends on the player to make the horn sound good, the finish only gives you a little boost in that area(when i say area, i mean silver=brighter for example). what i`m trying to say is that if you have a silver plated trumpet and our friend doesn`t, that doesn`t necesarily(i didn`t spell that right, but oh well) mean that you`ll have a brighter sound.

actually i think what colin was trying to say was that playing a crap trumpet he could get the sound the same sound with as a monette if he worked hard enough. that is also what i believe. the trombone player from maynard fergusons band plays on a dented king trombone and he sounds great. i would know that because i`ve met him

Derek, he sounds great to you because you can`t hear the difference. I might not be able to hear the difference. But the performer can. That`s what matters. I wouldn`t be able to stand to play out of tune, just because `they can`t hear it`.

It has been my personal experience that silver generally gives a softer sound. Jazz trumpet players who strive to have a lot of edge do not use silver trumpets. However, you can argue til the cows come home about what different finishes do to the sound, but the principle is being debated here, not the specifics.

The bottom line is, can a poorly made horn perform as well as a finely crafted horn? I don`t think so, if you know it to be otherwise, please explain your reasoning so we can all learn from it.

silver finish sometime is said to give a brighter sound sometime is said
to give a darker sound. I suspect it does not change sound significantly.
If you want to change sound, change mouthpiece.
A piece of crap can play as a top line instrument in the hands of a top artist.
A top line instruments can play as a piece of crap in the hands of a beginner and
for all the normal players the difference can be significant. Does it sound reasonable?

uhu

bonnie, to your statement about can a poorly made trumpet sound juat as good as a finely crafted one, sure it can. as uhu stated before me, YOU determine how the trumpet sounds, not the trumpet itself. an experienced pro can make the worst trumpet sound beautiful. also, an inexperinced beginer can make a bach strad, or a getzen sound bad.it`s about you and your abilities. in my opinion, the mouthpiece effects your sound more than the actual trumpet. i hope you don`t limit yourself, and rely on your trumpet to do all of the work, bonnie.

i didn`t write this post to put anybody down. i was stating my opinion, and i apologize in advance if anybody was hurt by this.

wy 2 go james!
lol good comeback

does anyone no how 2 improve indurance?

I disagree. When you can play a trombone and make it sound like a trumpet, I`ll agree. It`s the player, right? For that matter...just play a flute.

But, I won`t argue with you. I see you`ve got it pretty well figured out for yourself :D



Bonnie

PS. no insult caused by your comments. You have a right to your own opinion, as do I.

I`ve been reading over the different responses people have posted here, and I find myself wondering, "Just how much experience do these people have?"

Starting with the original topic "Custom painting your horn?" and thought, "Holy crap, someone isn`t actually thinking about that..." After reading into it, I`m seriously appauled at the general lack of knowledge about trumpet design and such. I`m not saying this in offense, but out of frank awe.

OK, here we go.

Quality trumpets (Yamaha, Bach, Besson, Benge, Blessing, Schilke, ect...) are designed to work in one particular way. The finish of lacquer or plating is decided in student horns often by which is cheaper. That`s why you see so many lacquered student horns - it`s cheaper. You can `upgrade` to silver plating, but that doesn`t mean you`re going to get the quality of plating on your Bach TR300 as on a Bach Stradivarius or Yamaha Xeno. Most major companies design the horns to be as efficient as possible for the money they`re getting. That`s also why you have things like nickle valves rather then monel, fewer braces, two-piece bells, and machined leadpipes.

That said, it`s necessary to say that nearly all of the manufactures student horns listed above are decent horns and do `slot` well, especially for the price. Putting paint on the exterior of your horn not only screws up the reverberation pattern of the horn, but seals the pores in the plating/lacquer to where it can`t breath. This can eventually lead to red rott, corrosion, and a number of other horn-ruining things. Yes, you may be able to make your horn look cool, but you must remember that the horn is an instrument designed to support an air column and be a trumpet. It`s not a show piece - it`s suppose to make a sound and ANY modification you make to it will effect it, with the greatest effect coming from dents and dings, modification of the surface/bracings, and YOU. Basically, putting more crap on the surface of your horn dampens the way it reverberates the air column and keeps the horn from doing its job.

You may be thinking "But I`ve seen blue, black, red, orange, green and purple trumpets! Why can`t I just paint mine like they did to those?!?" Those horns you`ve seen just have a colored lacquer. The horns you all call "brass" are usually brass trumpets with a thin coat of clear lacquer spread over them. With colored trumpet, they use a thin coat of say...red lacquer to make it appear red. Also, silver plated horns aren`t "silver", they are made exactly the same as their lacquer counterparts, but instead of having a lacquer sealant put on them, they have silver plating.

Now, I`ve heard a ridiculous amount of groups perform and met/heard a great deal of really fantastic players (Allen Vizzutti, Doc Severinsen, Maynard Ferguson, Jay Coble, Adolph Herseth, Phillip Smith, Wynton Marsalis, John Harbaugh, Michael Sachs...to name a few. All of these people are amazing players and use instruments ranging from lacquered to silver plated to raw brass, and if there is anything that I can find that doesn`t matter, it`s plating. Yes, right up front you may detect a slight difference that you percieve as "darker" or "brighter" or "ringier" or something, but out in the crowd, it`s nearly impossible to hear a difference between a lacquered or silver plated horn.

All trumpet players get hung up on this thing of what we sound like to ourselves, and while that is important, what we forget is that we are behind the bell and do not hear what someone fifty feet away hears. The bell takes a bit of distance to liquify and put the sound together into the tight and wonderful sound we all know from listening to Herseth, Sachs, Vizzutti, ect.... We get hung up on "I need to be darker" or "I need to be brighter to cut through", so we modify the way we do things to where we can hear the modification. Generally though, when we sound dark, and fluid to ourselves, people out in the crowd hear a thinnger, tangy sound that seems to be missing things, while when we sound bright and ringy to ourselves, we sound centered, dark and great to the audience. That is why it`s so important to study with a private teacher who knows what to listen for - they can stand in front of you and hear what you`re doing, then try to help you, and though it sometimes goes against what makes sense, if you just do it, it works and can make a HUGE difference to your playing.

Bottom line, don`t paint your horn unless you want to destabalize the precious balance of quality and cost already put into your student horn, and if you`re using a professional horn, don`t even think about it. It`ll ruin it! Just play and pursue that beautiful sound you want by envisioning what you`re playing in a musical context. Listen to great players (like the ones listed above)and try to sound like them. That is the best way to become a fantastic player. You`ll never hear one of the guys above say "I`m a master of my instrument", but rather "I just got done listening to a recording of *input some random, no-name player* doing *input some random piece no one knows* and really love what they did", meaning, they are always trying to find ways to improving, primarily by listening.

Don`t think about equipment, just your playing - that`s all it is. Get a decent horn (like listed above), pick a well known mouthpiece (Bach 7c-1 1/2c) and just play. Get a teacher who can help you, and run with it. You`ll improve.

If you all have questions, check out this link to talk to Karl Sievers, an excellent player and even better teacher at the University of Oklahoma - he is the moderator of "The Trumpet Corner" and answers questions honestly and accurately. Really nice guy (I`ve met him too )

http://www.selmer.com/trumpet/discus/index.html

Good luck,
Aaron Norlund

While there is very little difference in the sound of a silver plated vs. gold plated vs. raw brass trumpet, there is some and it is noticeable and measureable. Is it going to make a difference in a big hall on a performance? I highly doubt it. As for lacquer, however, there is a very noticeable difference in sound, even during a performance. The reason for this is that the lacquer almost doubles the thickness of the bell, while plating forms onto the bell, becoming in essence one single piece, and the plating is very thin. Since the plating becomes part of the bell, it resonates with the bell, while the lacquer doesn`t resonate. The metal is trying to fight the lacquer, as the metal vibrates and the lacquer doesn`t. Reynold Schilke performed an experiment that has often been repeated to some degree, testing many different materials and finishes and concluded that lacquer does make a serious difference in the sound. Plating does not.

Bobert -

What you`re suggesting is that dampening to any degree isn`t good at all. This I disagree with. Lacquer is quite thin, and though not as thin as silver plating, it isn`t thick enough to double the thickness of a trumpets bell (Well, not on good quality horns anyway.) I believe a certain degree of dampening is good - that`s why we have more bracings and such on the majority of professional horns. Look at Monettes - they`re CRAZILY dampened by things. They take the idea of full dampening for resonance and run with it to a ridiculous end.

Anyway, I generally disagree. If you get Phillip Smith to sit down and play, say, the posthorn solo from Mahler`s 3rd symphony on a lacquered 229/25H, and then a silver plated 229/25H, sitting a couple hundred feet away, I don`t think you`d hear a difference. Even if there was a difference, it probably would be a "That one is better" but a "That one is different."

Basically what it comes down to is personal choice. If you like lacquer and like what it supposedly `sounds` like, use one. If you like silver, use silver. I use lacquered horns basically for one reason - it`s easier to keep looking decent and clean. Less chance of tarnish and the surface doesn`t "fog" up like silver plating does after enough time. I also like the actual color of brass to be there as a reminder of the color sound I want - dark, caramel-like, and fluid.

Thats it from me -

Aaron

Monette trumpets are braced heavily, not to dampen the sound, but to stop vibrations from occuring in the metal. Energy that is spent in the form of vibrating metal is wasted energy. Metal that vibrates gives a brighter sound, since the vibrating metal is what is resonating and not the air column. This is why many lead horns are lightweight. These instruments don`t actually project as well as heavyweight horns, but the sense that they do is usually given because they are played in the upper register. Heavy horns often don`t have the immediate response of lightweight horns, since the player is expecting to feel the instrument vibrating. It also takes more effort for the player to feel that he is making the horn resonate (due to the fact that the sound is projected forward and not out in all directions). This can cause the illusion that the horn cannot play as high, when in fact it cannot play as brightly, and the player feels it isn`t projecting enough.

I have performed custom work on a number of brass intruments, and I almost always strip the lacquer. Throughout this work, I have found that everyone notices a difference in the way the horn plays and responds, as well as the way it sounds, both close up and far away. I have found that the way a horn plays (based on weight) significantly involves where the horn is played. For a small room, without much vibration, lightweight horns actually work the best. The response is immediate and the sound is brilliant without being shrill. In these situations, I have also found that the removal of the third bell to leadpipe brace can give the player more feedback from their horn. In a larger playing environment, such as a concert hall, this brace removal will detract from the sound, as it is no longer being projected forward, but off to the sides, and even backwards. This is where the heavyweight sheet bracing becomes useful. Charlie Schlueter of the Boston Symphony orchestra, plays a monette Raja Samadhi. This horn has very large, heavy sheets of brass bracing it and two coaxial bells. In a large, open, live room, this horn can sound very dark and yet brilliant at the same time. In a smaller room, the same horn sounds dark and muddy. This is why Monette trumpets must be custom tailored to an individual.

The lacquer that is used on modern brass instruments is between .007 and .01 inches thick. Silver plating is between .001 and .003 inches thick. Brass on most instruments is between .020 and .030 inches thick. This is why lacquer finish can deaden the sound of the horn. While heavy sheet bracing can focus the sound and make it richer and more powerful, lacquer doesn`t give the metal anywhere to vibrate. This is why Dave Monette never lacquers his horns. Some come in silver and all are offered in gold, but none are lacquered.

Having played many different instruments, I can honestly say that I have never played a lacquered horn that I really like. I have played many Bach Strads, in both silver and lacquer, and a few in raw brass as well. Of the newer Strads, I have only found one that I didn`t hate. Yamaha has consistency unmatched by any manufacturer in the world, and there is a noticeable difference between the lacquered horns and the silver horns. The lacquer finish makes the horn harder to play, as the player is trying to get more resonance from a horn that is basically fighting him. My favorite finish is raw brass, since it seems to give the most brilliant sound, probably because the whole horn is vibrating exactly the same way. I actually had the opportunity to play two Monette B937s, one in brass and one in gold plate. I preffered the raw brass horn.

If you want to play a lacquered horn, go for it. Maybe you have your own style that benefits from the lacquer, but I doubt it. I refuse to lacquer any horn that I work on, because it`s kind of pointless to fix something if I am going to break it again. But play what you want, since in the end it is the individual player who determines what they want to sound like. Just keep in mind that Dave Monette doesn`t lacquer his instruments. And good luck with your career in music, if you do indeed follow that path.