Yesterday a trombone player told me a passage is impossible to play.

These are the pitches: the F# directly below middle C, the G one semitone above that F#, and the Ab one semitone above that G.

This is the sequence: F# G, Ab G Ab G, Ab G Ab, G, Ab.

This is the pace: The pitches are all notated as thirty-second notes, and the tempo is quarter note = 92.

Notice that the F# can be (and must be) taken in fifth position, the G in fourth, and the Ab in third. My first question is: If it is impossible to play pitches a minor second apart in adjacent positions fast, what POSSIBLE to play fast?

When I got home I looked through a book of Chicago transcriptions. In “To Be Free” from the second Chicago album Chicago’s trombonist plays Bb Ab, G, Ab in sixteenth notes at what I have determined to be quarter note = 175. Thirty-second notes at quarter note = 92 are only five percent faster. The Ab and G here are the same Ab and G as in my passage. The Bb can be taken either as the fourth harmonic in first position or as the fifth harmonic in fifth position, and in either case going from this Bb to Ab is skipping a position, which is more difficult than playing adjacent positions. My second question is: If my passage is impossible, how is it possible for Chicago’s trombonist to play “To Be Free”?

Here are some alternative approaches:

1) Use a valve trombone and slur. My third question is: How common are these? Does anyone here own one? (Okay, third and fourth questions.)

2) Use a slide trombone and slur, and turn a deaf ear, so to speak, to the glissando (portamento), assuming that at this tempo the other “horns” playing similar figures will cover for it. Likely scenario or not? Glissando aside, this approach assumes that the chief difficulty of the passage is not the fast slide shifting in itself but either the fast tonguing or the fast tonguing in combination with the fast slide shifting. A valid assumption or not?

3) Use a slide trombone with an F attachment and slur. In this case the G would be played in the third position as the fifth harmonic with the F attachment trigger depressed, and the Ab would be played also in the third position but as the fourth harmonic with the F attachment trigger not depressed. (The F# would be played in the fourth position as the fifth harmonic with the F attachment trigger depressed.) The F# aside, the only trick here is depressing the trigger fast enough which it seems to me, should be equivalent to tapping 16ths at q=92, and I don’t find that particularly difficult myself. How common are F attachments? Does anyone here have one?

i can answer the simple questions...valve trombones, not so much as common as slide trombones...and trombones with F attachments, you can find one in almost any high school or pro bands. im just starting out and i already have a really good horn with the F trigger....but everything else leave to Mas and Erik, there the ones to ask.

it would all depend on style and situation.

jazz- doodle tongue. it is a method that has been around for a while that basically lets us, yes us trombone players play as fast as a sax player. dont believe me check out bob mcchesney. http://www.bobmcchesney.com/ BASICALLY the articulation is duh ul la ul la ul la...... IT SOUNDS EASY but it isnt, at least not for me. cool to check out anyway
good stuff there

classical- im looking at your post quite literally and i see you used a comma so i assume you want a break or something in there and you should a triple tongue. that will allow you to accent in the sequence that i have interpreted when you typed it out with the commas.
articulation would be duh duh guh(tuh tuh kuh).


hope that was helpful.

Of course it`s possible, that`s absurd.

1. Don`t bother with a valve trombone, it`s not worth it. (invalid instrument, hahaha)

2. Don`t gliss it, it will sound bad. This is something that you just simply have to get "muscle memory" into the picture. Our speed in playing is limited to 3 things. How fast and accurately we can move the slide, how fast we can tongue, and how well we can line those two up. So work on double and triple tonguing, and slide speed and accuracy, really landing securely on each position.

3. I play an F attachment, and I wouldn`t want to deal with that. With an F trigger, that G would be flat third, yes, but not a big enough improvement to want to deal with the mechanics and sound of switching back and forth. And the Ab would be flat 2nd, also not a big enough improvement to try to get the trigger involved.

Plain and simple, add double and triple tonguing into your daily warm up or technical routine. When you get accustomed to it, start doing it on scales, including the chromatic scale. Once you get the speed up, you will be fine.

And yeah, it most definately is possible. James Pankow of Chicago most definately can do it, as well as Mcchesney, and cats like J.J. Johnson, Christian Lindberg, and lots of others.


OR.....

It could be something written strange, like they wrote it as 32nds but want it to sound like a shake, or slow vibrato, something like that. What song is it, what style, what situation, are there any markings around it?

I`m a little confused. Just now the forum outline says six replies to this thread, but when I click I only get three replies. Oh, well.

In any case, thank you very much musicman, Mas, and Erik. All three replies were very helpful--and prompt! I`m a little pressed for time now, so I`ll just try to clear up a couple of misconceptions (both clearly my fault).

Re: "im looking at your post quite literally and i see you used a comma so i assume you want a break or something in there and you should a triple tongue."

Actually, I only put the commas in because I thought that would make the passage easier to read. The implied groupings have to do with the bar line and beams and nothing at all to do with the sound, which is continuous. Sorry about that.

Re: "It could be something written strange, like they wrote it as 32nds but want it to sound like a shake, or slow vibrato, something like that. What song is it, what style, what situation, are there any markings around it?"

Actually, I wrote it myself. I don`t play the trombone; I want (will want eventually, that is) a trombonist to play it for me. The style is moderately funky hard rock (although the sax and guitar solos happened to turn out jazzy--that was not intentional). It`s for rock rhythm section (piano, electric guitar, electric bass guitar, drums), horn section (trumpet, alto and tenor saxophones, and trombone), and vocals (lead and two back-ups). The horn section is meant to sound vaguely James-Brown-ish. The other "horns" have similar figures, and I gave them each one big slur here. I didn`t give the trombone a slur because of the glissando that would result, but the more of a slur sort of effect it can get without straining itself (straining itself further, I should say, I suppose) the better. That`s really no big deal, however. I gave the other "horns" slurs mostly just to make their parts easier to play.

Ok that makes sense. It will be VERY hard, but I wouldn`t say impossible. Depending on the player you have in mind or find to play it, you may have to change it some to get a desired sound and feel, but with a little work, it is deffinately possible.

Re:

"...you may have to change it some to get a desired sound and feel..."

I thought of various ways to thin the trombone part (leaving the other parts intact--I`m very reluctant at this point to undertake a major uprooting), but they all make trombone notes obtrude. If I remove the trombone completely here, the passage sounds too wimpy. In these voicings the trombone really gives the thing an edge.

Re:

"3. I play an F attachment, and I wouldn`t want to deal with that. With an F trigger, that G would be flat third, yes, but not a big enough improvement to want to deal with the mechanics and sound of switching back and forth. And the Ab would be flat 2nd, also not a big enough improvement to try to get the trigger involved."

I don`t quite follow this. I see that the Ab would be the fifth harmonic with the F trigger depressed, but the idea (following remarks in Kent Kennan`s "Technique of Orchestration)" is to alternate the F-trigger G with the non-F-trigger Ab holding the slide in the same position so that neither rapid slide movement nor rapid tonguing is necessary (only rapid trigger depressing).

When you say "FLAT third" and "FLAT 2nd", do you mean that these pitches in relation to the fundamental are just rather than tempered or Pythagorean? (The just major third is 5:4; the tempered it 2^(1/3):1; and the Pythagorean is 81:64.) Wouldn`t a trombonist who didn`t want just intervals simply shift the slide slightly, and doesn`t the ability to make that sort of adjustment account for the popularity of the slide?

Now, it`s true that if you hold the slide in one position, and holding the slide in one position is the premise of this approach, you won`t get a tempered relation between the trigger-depressed G and the non-trigger depressed Ab. Is this your objection?

Whoops. I meant to say, "I see that the Ab would be the SECOND POSITION fifth harmonic with the F trigger depressed."

For one thing, it wouldn`t be the same position, the Ab in 3rd, and the G in trigger 3rd, and here is why. (This will explain the "flat 3rd" thing) When we depress the trigger, it automatically elongates the horn. So you have to move the slide slightly further to make the same half step change. The simple explantion is this: With no trigger, there are seven positions. With 1 trigger, it becomes a 6 position instrument, and each slide position is adjusted accordingly, from 1st being in 1st to 6th being in 7th (And some will say "think flat 7th to really have it in tune). Add the 2nd trigger, and it shortens again to 5. So that G, played with the trigger in 3rd, would be in tune out past the bell, almost out to fourth. So you would have to use the trigger and move the slide that fast, instead of just one. That`s why it wouldn`t make sense to use the trigger, since you still have to move the slide anyway.

I see. I suppose that should have been obvious, but it didn`t occur to me. Too bad the trigger doesn`t correspondingly elongate the slide--probably highly impractical. The example Kennan gives involves A and Bb. Maybe when Kennan invites us to find analogous examples he means only first position analogous examples; I`ll have to reread the passage closely.

Now could you be more specific about your objection to the valve trombone?

Oh my position on the valve trombone is pretty much strictly personal. I (as well as many others) kind of see it as a joke of an instrument. But hey, if it works, go for it.

Also, it more depended on the style of music. That instrument just would not work in an orchestral or jazz setting, but for rock or funk, sure, why not.

valve trombones blow really terribly. screw em moving on



re-write the passage with 16th notes and have the bone hit the phrase and with the bone in half time compared to the rest of the horns it should sound alright.

i had this problem over the summer with a michael jackson tune, working day and night. if you ever listen to the song youll understand.

anyways it was a EXTREMELY hard line that was making me mad, so instead of playing all the notes, which were 16ths i just play the down beat and up beat. sounded cleaner and made the other horns a bit more honest because i was playing much more metrically solid.
on a somewhat unrelated note if you do ever listen to the song youll notice that the horns are trading 16th notesback and forth. bone bari are on down and up and the sax and trumpets are on the E and Uh of the beat. its pretty freaking awesome sounding.

Re: "That instrument [the valve trombone] just would not work in an orchestral or jazz setting....

Well, there is, of course, the very famous Juan Tizel, who played valve trombone for Duke Ellington for quite some time and is generally considered a key player. There is also the famous Bob Brookmeyer. It`s my impression that in classical music, at least orchestral music, the potential of the trumpet is very rarely realized. The non-horn brass are used very sterotypically in a very limited manner.

"stereotypically", that is.