I've been looking at Method books, I've asked this same question on OFJ and on the International Trombone Assosation forem, but no one has replyed yet. I've been looking to buy a Arban's method book, but are there any others out there (in 1 book) that are better, have more information in it, stuff that will help a rapidly learning trombone player?

I like alot of books, get arbans and pay for a couple lessons to have a teacher show you the best way to use it. If you can get the Arbans that only has about 60 pages id go with that. It has a great set of exercizes and will help you get good quick. If you want somthing a little more melodic get, and im spelling this wrong but, the roschews. there a great way to get melodic and get to play good exercizes.

the rochuts are nice, but....
David Schwartz did a better transcription of the Bordogni Vocalises (that's what the rochuts actually are)... best part about them is it has a CD with the piano accompaniments, so you have to play them in good time and with good intonation..
it's not an all inclusive method book, but a good one to have.
arban is probably the most thorough, but even it has loopholes...
method books are what you make of them, really.

im going to buy the arban's method book along with the melouis (sp) etudes. I've also been informed of a trombone professor at Morehead State and so she has been told about me and so she is going to give me trombone lessons, which from what everyone says, she only gives lessons to college students, but since she's heard how well im progressing that she is going to take me on, but thanks for all of your alls advice though

before you buy the Melodious Etudes, lemme plug one more time...
The david schwartz version has ALL the same etudes except number 1.... so it's basically the same book..
but...
the piano accompaniment CD keeps you in strict tune and time and really encourage better phrasing and dynamics
all the benefits of the Rochut and then some... well worth it

Well..... (Devils advocate) The only problem I have with playing along to a CD, especially on the Rochuts, is that they are not supposed to be played in strict time. Intonation, yes, it will help. But these etudes are supposed to flow freely, and when you play along to a CD, you loose all of the pushing and pulling with time, thus you are not able to put in your own style.

Just my 2 cents...

As for books, the Arban's is great, but remember, it's a cornet book rewritten for trombone. There is a lot of new thought out there now moving away from this type of work, which I have found myself joining in on. Basically, you want to work on your tone, sound pruduction, and sound quality before trying to work on technical issues. Technical things will come, range, speed, accuracy, but if you do not have the support and sound to back it up, you won't go anywhere.

The two books I use daily are:

"A Singing Approach to Trombone" by Charles Vernon
and...
"Ben's Basics" by Ben van Dijk

I just got Ben's Basics a few weeks ago, and I already love it. I highly recommend either or both of these books to work on everything non-technical, and some (actually quite a bit) of technicality as well.

Check out Ben's Basics at his website, www.basstrombone.nl

can't say i agree with you...
rochut didn't write them, Marco Bordogni did.. and he wrote them with a piano accompaniment.
the problem i see with many players young and old, and even catch myself doing it sometimes, is that time gets so "free" that it's just out of control...
is the player slowing down because he or she is trying to be expressive, or because they can keep up in certain spots better than others? usually, it's the latter.
too much push and pull, as you call it, to me many listeners, is just unsettling. it there was an audition and i was judging, and someone played a bordogni with the time all over the place, i would be all over it.
the cd allows for certain ritards and a wee bit of free time, but more often than not, people use the "free time" concept as an cop out for not playing in good time...
my old teacher used to say..
"play with a nice tone, people will want to hear you play.. play in tune and people will want to play with you.. and play in time so that they CAN play with you."

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also, keep in mind....
if you have the CD, you have the choice to use it or not...
if you don't have it, the choice is not even there. and it's not a huge price difference.

But that's just the thing. If you play the Rochut book strictly in time, you are not playing it right. It's supposed to have a little bit of push and pull. Granted, you are right, most players use that to mask harder sections while flying through the easy ones, but by playing along to a CD, you don't have that option at all. And the Rochut books do have an optional piano accompaniment book you can get. Plus, one of the biggest parts of playing these, is learning how to add your own little personality into them. Push and pull, different dynamics, different ornamentations. They are not intended to be played note by note, in stict time and volume. That's why they don't have much in them defining dynamics, articulation, or style. You add that. But with a CD, you can't. You are tied up by playing along with someone else's ideas.

So in my view, the only way to play them correctly, is to play them either by yourself while adding your own soul into them, or with another human playing the piano part.

It's just personal for me, I just can't stand playing along to a CD, especially on something that is supposed to move around. Some things are supposed to be played in strict time. But not all. These are a good example.

The way I think about it is this: If I was at a concert, and two different people playing the same Rochut Etude, the first playing it strictly in time, the second adding in some changes, some push and pull, really defined the style and setting forth real emotion, there would be no question who's I would like better. Real emotion does not have strict time.

i guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one man.
i have worked with some fantastic teachers, and all of them, when i have played a rochut/bordogni for them have said " you need to play in better time"
i'll admit, i like to take liberties with the time myself when playing them. but that being said..
if you're gonna play these with anyone.. either with the duets accompaniment or the piano accompaniment. .you HAVE to have some consistency of time. if you are gonna put a ritardando in, you will still have to be consistent about when you do it and how.. your partner is not a mind reader and neither are you . if they started getting wild with the time, you are constantly reacting, guessing what they're gonna do next.. and you'll never truly play together that way. .it's like playing with someone who never lands on the pitch right and has to make adjustments on every note.. just doesn't work.
i am curious to know where you got this idea that Johannes Rochut or Marco Bordogni never meant for these to be played in strict time? do you have documentation of this?
and are you saying that if you play in time you have no emotions?? seriously??
you can be expressive without pushing and pulling the time... dynamics, phrasing, shaping lines, note tapers... plenty of ways to emote.
if you insist in your theory that free time required to be expressive, more power to you.. but i'd never want you in an ensemble with me.

I partially agree with you. I'm not aying go crazy with it, it has to be tastful. My teachers have said the same thing, about having to play in better time, but that only works to an extent. They also say I need to put some emotion into them by playing with time sometimes. Granted, that does not mean a lot, but it does mean some. There are rallentandos all over the place, which cannot be done in your own way along to a CD. How is someone supposed to learn while they play along to a CD, having to slow down, and then come back into time, strictly by what they hear instead of by deciding for themselves? Plus, when it says "con espressione", that would mean with expression, right? So, not in strict time. (Not crazy and all over the place like a Bach Cello Suite, but not "strict" either) Yes, I agree that you can easily overdo it, but still, that does not mean there should be zero, which is what you will get along to a CD.

They call them "Melodious Etudes" for a reason. They should be rather free and emotional, unlike technical excercises where the point is to play them in strict time, the hard sections as well as the easy. It is our job as players to put into them what we can to make them beautiful. That's the cool thing about them. That you can play them so many different ways, with different dynamics, different speeds, pulling and pushing the tempo, play them in different octaves, clefs, keys, etc. etc. etc. All I am saying is that with a CD, you are limited to what you can do with them. Also, I'm not saying to never play them along to the CD, but don't get used to it. It's just too limiting.

I do not have "documentation", only what my teachers have told me over the years. And that has been, more than anything, experiment with these. Play them different. Different keys, different clefs, different octaves, different tempos, different dynamics, different emotions. When we play along to a CD, it takes away a lot of the expression, especially because you always get the same thing. You don't get to play in different tempos, and you can't do any experimentation with pushing and pulling and stretching with that tempo. And that is what you can learn so much from these etudes.

ok yah....im not going to get those books, instead im going to buy method books a college professior is telling me to get, rubank's advanced method, and a few others. But also i agree with both of you when you all say that playing along with a CD doesn't allow much "freedom" while playing. but yes, that doesn't mean you can't play emotionally, but at the same time it also means that you don't have as much control over that. so yah...

after deliberation on the OTJ, I have come to the following conclusion..
i think we're only partially on different pages. i'm looking at this from more of the perspective of teaching, not performing. there is a difference between rubato playing, and a student slowing down on more difficult passages and passing it off as a ritardando when in fact, it's just that they can't play it in time. therefore..
once it's demonstrated by the student that the etude can be played in time, then (but only then), it's great to branch out. but the ability to play it in time must be demonstrated first. that said... it's gotta be tasteful, and have some purpose. if the time gets too all over the place, even joe sixpack in the audience will feel unsettled, though he may not know why.
the playalong CD helps to find out which is the case.. if you can play it with the CD, it's time to move on. (though i do continue with it form time to time for an intonation check. )personally, i'd rather have a piano player with a pulse, and believe me, i work with some killer piano players. but schedules just won't allow it.