p.s. Roisin where are you based? If you were interested I could probably give you details of at least one person who taught me... perhaps a useful insight into teaching someone playing the other way round.

Most of my students play right handed, but I have 3 students playing left handed (two natural lefties, and one righty with a left hand injury preventing fingering with that hand). I teach everyone the same way. Its quite simple really. Bowing and fingering techniques are identical regardless of what hand you use. The bow still goes back and forth, and the fingers still go up an down. If a student works up to the level of sharing a music stand with a righty, I give some tips on orienting their chairs so that they can easily sit on either the right or left side of their stand partner without playing interference. I`m sure that Ben has experience with this as well. Community and amateur orchestras in my area (New England, USA) are generally tolerant and welcoming to anyone, right or left handed players.

Ryan Thomson

I just naively sent back my son`s new (rented) violin back to school and indignantly asked for a `left handed violin`, only to be told by the music teacher that they did not exist. I`m sending her this web address tonight.

This entire discussion (going all the way back to 2002?) is great -- I can`t believe that today we would force left handers to use an instrument designed for right handers, especially one so small (i.e. this isn`t a piano!). As my son has just started instruction this week and is not particular if it`s a violin or one of his other choices, we`re going to either try and find one of those left-handed violins to rent or change the instrument to something less right-brain designed.

ANYONE have a rental reference in the NY area to recommend?
Thanks to all for a really interesting discussion.

Dear Mary,

You may have read in an earlier posting that I`ve written an entire book - “Playing the Violin and Fiddle Left Handed” which documents a considerable amount of scientific evidence on the superiority of using the dominant hand for tasks requiring a high level of mechanical skill, in particular, playing the violin. It also presents many accounts of left handed musicians who have actual experience with this issue.
Its fortunate that school teachers in modern times have come to the inevitable conclusion that lefties can control a pencil better with their dominant hands. Its unfortunate that most string teachers are way behind the curve in this regard. I suggest that those desiring more information about this subject should read my book. Skeptics are welcome to debate my findings as I’ve outlined them in the volume. I’m a researcher (naturally right handed) who has discovered that many so called “experts” rely upon anecdotal lore which promotes the outdated notion that left handed people should just bite the bullet.
Because of this ignorance they often really believe and perpetuate idiotic myths such as “left handers have an advantage over right handers, because they can use their stronger left hand to finger the violin.” If that myth was actually true, then all naturally right handed violinists would be playing the violin left handed, so that they could use their stronger and more coordinated right hand to finger the violin. And they aren’t.
I’m sure that some string teachers just believe the myths, because they’ve never heard otherwise, but I suspect that many others resist the notion of allowing their left handed students to play left handed because of a general lazy notion that it will make their teaching job easier. Its a crime to put an arbitrary hurdle in the path of a left handed child who deserves every opportunity to flourish in the development of their musical skills. Violin playing is hard enough as it is, without heaping on the additional burden of not being able to use their dominant hands to do the most important task of violin playing, which is the control of tone, dynamics and timing by use of the bow.

Ryan Thomson

I must start by saying that I don`t appreciate Mr. Thomson`s characterization of string teachers as ignorant, "behind the curve" and lazy. I will have you know that no string teacher rejects the idea of a "left-handed" violin because they are too lazy to learn how to teach it. Anyone who enters the field of music education does so with the best of motivations; namely, to share our talents and to enable children to have a quality musical experience. I assure you it isn`t for the money or prestige or the opportunity to play the D scale and Twinkle Twinkle Little Star day in and day out. Enough teacher-bashing, please!

Now, more to the point - No one hand on the violin is more dominant than the other! The tasks of fingering and bowing are equally important, and both require a degree of coordination and fine motor skill. I simply do not see how reversing the set-up of the instrument and bowing with one`s dominant hand is advantageous for left-handed players. If Mr. Thomson`s research indicates that the dominant hand should be used for tasks requiring a high level of mechanical skill, why then would that not suggest that it should be used for the fingering of the violin? Surely that requires a high level of mechanical skill!

Parents, please don`t blame your beginning string player`s struggles on the fact the he is left-handed, or allow your child to believe for one minute that he is at a disadvantage. The violin is a challenging instrument, and establishing good position requires effort and practice for all students - regardless of which hand is "dominant." While I respect Mr. Thomson`s opinion and research, many outstanding teachers and musicians do not agree with his conclusions (even some of my left-handed colleagues dismissed the idea!) "Left-handed" violin playing is not widely accepted by teachers and performers, and it is not due to the fact that we are all ignorant, lazy and "behind the curve."

Having read that last post frankly I`m astonished to see such a witless and ignorant reply - and teacher or not I can only question the level to which you play your instrument when you say you can`t see how "bowing with one`s dominant hand is advantageous for left-handed players."

Certainly the violin is one of the most difficult instruments to master due to the technical difficulties to be overcome in both hands, but I can only return to quoting one of my previous posts...

"The bow hand is the singing hand... and while yes a degree of skill is required with both hands I would draw the simile with a great artist using their other hand. While you might be able to learn to draw or write with the other hand perfectly proficiently [and in the past people were forced to], you might never achieve greatness. More than adequecy perhaps but not the true extent of your capabilities.

The same is true of playing an stringed instrument - particularly the violin where you have such control over the note after the initial attack, but also the guitar where the natural hand should generate the tone. Rhythmically you will always be more natural and accurate with your natural hand..."

I think you misquote Mr Thomson in regard to the notion of violin teachers being lazy. It is a twisting of words and I`m sure an untruth that he would think anyone dedicating themselves to such a noble profession would be so. However it is true that there is a myth perpetuated by the institution that the violin should always be played right-handed.

Thankfully to a large degree this myth has been dispelled in the guitar playing world, due to the success of a number of high profile musicians over the years. The same has not yet happened in the world of strings - and I imagine it will be some time yet, particularly as sadly many talented musicians and music students have in more recent times turned away from classical and "serious music".

To parents and teachers I would urge this... Do take into consideration which hand your beginner string player favours. Remember both that there are different degrees of musical ability and degrees of left-handedness and right-handedness. Where a pupil is strongly left-handed and shows a very strong musical inclination you should consider whether they would go further playing with their leading hand generating the tone of the instrument.

You also need to consider life in the orchestra - as this is the main obstacle of a left-handed violinist. You stick out like a sore thumb and you project the wrong way. Those of exceptionally high ability could (and have) enjoyed successful careers as chamber musicians, or even soloists - though as I say I haven`t come across one yet!

It is a difficult decision to make as it is hard to spot early just how talented someone is. If someone might be a great violinist (cellist etc) then you might deny them the chance of greatness by getting them to play against their natural bent. On the other hand if someone might be a very good violinist is it fair to have them learn left-handed when they might later on find it difficult to get work in a vocation they love.

Just because you might agree with what I`m saying and disagree with a large part of the institution doesn`t make it fair to make a statement with your child... so I would urge caution. But at the same time, nothing will change for the better if noone learns that way round.

For orchestral playing things will always be this way - unless in some distant future the population are left-handed and right-handed in equal measure. I believe it is around 10% of the population who are left-handed, but a higher percentage in musicians. You are not likely to get orchestras having an equal section of violins, one left-handed and one right-handed playing on opposite wings. This is never likely to happen.

So there we go - I`ve ended up almost arguing for both sides of the debate.

It occurs to me someone might ask this question. In the case of a violinist most have a very good ear for relative pitch.

Very young kids who sing along to music in tune, or in key - and even sing accurately recognisable phrases without accompaniment - these kids have a very high musical ability.

Rhythm is another significant element, some young kids bang away at things in time to music when they hear it, or bang rhythms without any accompaniment - possibly a sign of remembering music.

For the violin though, pitch is important. The violin is an unfretted stringed instrument and this means that rather than having frets which set the pitch of the notes, you have to find the notes and gradually learn where your fingers should go. Obviously this process can be difficult or impossible if you can`t hear if a note is out of tune when you are playing it.

And I should also point out that as well as talent it requires a lot of dedication and hard work, and self-discipline to attain a high standard on any instrument - in particular the violin.

Not all talented people are also genetically gifted (or predisposed I should say) in this department

Im no expert but heres my two cents...

First of all, from what ive read in the past, left handed people are more prone to being ambidexterous than naturally right handed people. This would incur that no matter which hand you have them learn with, they will learn. Neither of the hand skills are natural to begin with, so what does it hurt to learn.

Wrong hand use can be learned. A guy i know named Derek plays ping pong. Last year he broke his collarbone and wasnt able to use his right arm. Over a few months, he has learned to play left handed. He plays better lefty than i do with right hand.

For solo work, a left handed instrument is fine. Now think what happens when you join the orchestra... The orchestra is a machine. The bows are supposed to move together. When suddenly someone is flipped over and their downbow is the opposite way as everyone elses, not only do they have the higher possibility of hitting their stand partner but this messes up the machine.

Learning to play as a right handed player if you are left handed can be done.

There is a slight misconception here. Just because at a very early age you can`t tell which hand will be dominant, doesn`t mean either hand can end up dominant.

Though it is not fully understood, handedness (and some aspects of personality) have something to do with the way the two hemispheres of the brain interact. If you are more right-brain dominant in your thinking you will be more left-handed and vice-versa.

So as I`ve stated above yes it may "hurt to learn"... and by the age at which you might start learning the violin you have already displayed your handedness in some way.

Noone is denying that you can achieve some profiency either way round - in fact if you were prepared to work very hard at it, the average reasonably musical person could reach grade 8 standard, or whatever the equivalent in the US is. (It would be whatever exams you take before achieving the standard where you might consider working towards a performers diploma, bringing you up to a professional standard).

Another thing, "their downbow is the opposite way as everyone elses"... this is also wrong - the bow still goes up and down with everyone elses, the pattern is not broken in this respect. What is seen is that one bow is travelling up and down at a different angle to everyone else. In fact a righthander bowing up and down in the wrong place is far more noticeable than a lefthander in a section!

I have played in a great many orchestras up to a semi-pro standard and it has always been easy to work around, just by turning my chair at an angle there was no danger of bow clashes, stands falling over etc. Sometimes in a crowded concert space it could be more of a problem, but then everyone has a problem in a crowded concert space.

A previous writer “Curry” makes the comment that “wrong hand use can be learned.” He’s correct, of course. Human beings are very adaptable and creative. With a lot of work and sweat, people can accomplish quite a bit. I know a man, born with no hands, for example, who plays guitar with his feet. He wants to make music, and does what he has to do to accomplish it. Many left handed people develop a fair amount of ambidexterity during their lifetimes due to constant practice with right handed implements, tools, etc.

Similarly I know right handed people who have practised tasks such as writing with their left hands, just for a lark. But which hand do they use when in a hurry, and needing to jot down a quick note? Their dominant hand, of course. Lets use some common sense here. No one starts out playing a musical instrument with the goal of playing at a mediocre level, or not playing to the best of their ability.

Everyone wants to learn to play as well as they can, as quickly and painlessly as possible. The most efficient way to achieve proficiency is to use the best tools and techniques available. Why bother to take the extra effort needed to teach the “wrong hand” to do a skilled task, when there is a hand with superior skill available?

I recently had a string teacher write to me. She told me that after many years of teaching children she had noticed that she often had problems with the left handed kids. When first presented with bows, many would take their bows into their left hands and attempt to bow their violins, and she had to gently guide them back to right handed playing. Some of them had quite a struggle with right handed bowing at first, seeming uncoordinated, but then, after time, most would adapt to a fair extent.

Meanwhile, the right handed kids made faster progress in general. It occurred to her one day that if right handed kids had to use their left hands to bow at first, then they would exhibit the very same “uncoordinated” behavior. She had come to the conclusion that a better way to afford children a way to use their natural skills more effectively is to allow them to use their dominant hands to bow their violins.

This view point is still a minority one, but the writing is on the wall, the times are changing. Its only relatively recently here in the United States, for example, that left handed school children have been allowed to write with their left hands. I’ve met a number of left handers in their 40’s and 50’s whose left hands were tied to their school desks by zealous teachers trying to force them to write in the “correct” right handed manner. And of course, given enough time at it, they managed to get by, and then described themselves later in life as “ambidextrous,” and prided themselves on their abilities to do some activities right handed, and some left handed. I`ve quoted many of them in my book on left handed violin playing.

I predict that at some time in the future, even the orchestra bowing issue will become mute, as there will enough left handed violinists to make sections within the sections. Concert goers will have something else interesting to watch, and it will probably increase ticket sales. As a dedicated music teacher, and naturally right handed, by the way, my first responsibility is to provide a course of instruction that affords children the best chance of achieving their potential.

hmm looks like you guys have done a lottle more research on this than me

I suppose the real question is this: since the violin is odd to play at first anyways, is bowing really the part that should have the dominant hand? from what you guys are saying it seems like it is so...

Not to be thrown into the "it`s all about the music" bunch, since the point has been brought up, so frequently, that a left hander would throw off the symmetry of a orchestral groups` seating arrangement, I would like to know how many people go to the symphony to appreciate the geometry of the musicians` physical performance.

Jason

hehe... i appreciate the sentiment of the last post, but it is surprising how many people will pick up on something visually disturbing in a performance.

those who side with the experience being all about the sound tend to be people who just listen to records.

the true live music concert experience is all about sound - and to a greater or lesser degree depending on the genre the interaction between performers and audience as well.

this experience is something common to the most musically educated and the musically ignorant - and visual things can disturb it...

but does a left-hander disturb it to such a degree that things are not so enjoyable? in the case of an orchestra, as i`ve pointed out before, a right-hander bowing the wrong way is much more disturbing.

going back to the experience factor - when you see a live concert and everything is dangerously near the edge but brilliant, and (almost) all goes to plan - it`s a truly magical experience.

Thank you for joining this thread.

I too believe that we are at a turning point. When I began the violin, many years ago, the only ways to acquire a left-handed instrument were 1) find a maker that would make one (at one time, it was difficult to even find one that would--due to "the prejudice"); 2) stumble across one hidden at a dealer`s shop (hidden as though the instrument was something to be ashamed of) or, 3) have one converted--again, finding a maker willing to do this "sacrosanct" act was a very difficult task). ---Unfortunately, Most of us did not have a relative leave one to us in their will.

Today, more and more makers and dealers are catering to this market.
As an example, this year there are at least double the number of retailers and makers that actually post or advertise left handed string instruments---some have gone as far as to state “we specialized in left-handed string instruments.”

I must say it is a very positive change.

I think we can safely say that the arguments against these types of players, be they into folk, western, swing or orchestral music are a moot point. We are and always have been here. Only now, we are growing in numbers!

We are here to stay, so get used to it!!!!!