Kids also need to have time to have a childhood though. So make sure you find the happy medium between practicing and playing. You don`t want your kids to grow up with an animosity towards practice because that`s all they did when they were little.

Madeline you make a good and fundamental point about "balance". I recall from my university orchestra a number of violinists in particular who were extremely proficient musicians but seemed to have become so at the expense of 4 hours a day solitary practise taken from their childhood. Interestingly this did not apply to two different Suzuki trained leaders who were both extremely gregarious with many other interests - neither had made the violin their "religion", but both had had been able to develop their ability over time. It also doesn`t seem to apply so much to professionals, as making music a career option seems to clear more time for playing. The cellist whose name I forget who won BBC Young Musician of the Year a couple of years ago had a happy childhood because much of his playing was in ensembles with members of his family, rather than alone in a room.

I suspect that the negative balance over practising often comes in somewhat further down the line than beginning an instrument. William Pleeth`s book on Cello in the Yehudi Menuhin guides has a very good chapter on working with youngsters instead of against them to harness their natural interest.

If you are just beginning and practising for maybe 10 minutes a day some days, and not at all on other days, that leaves plenty of time for all the other things of childhood, including some wonderful stimulating experiences, but also the mundane (clothes shopping with mother) and the inane (people keep buying my son plastic guns, one of which says "Woof"). I think one of the reasons children prefer a big cardboard box to a pile of toys is that even to a child it has more function. Toys are often imitations of something from real life, with the proper function stripped away. Nobody would get uptight over a "toy violin" that says "Moo" when you press a button on it, but that would be very one dimensional. In many ways a real violin is a much better toy than a toy one. It can offer stimulation not by being thrown away and moving to the next toy, but by layer after layer of experiment, investigation, discovery and learning.

I would describe my son`s changing response to violin lessons as "enharmonic". On the face of it in one and a half terms we haven`t progressed much. We`re still playing "sausages and bacon" on the open E string. But his attitude has changed (admittedly initially through the flawed mechanism of bribery with raisins) from "right, that`s 8 seconds of that, where`s the next toy?", to one in which he takes an interest for instance in how to get a relaxed bow hold which will produce a firm sound, where he is more interested in children`s concerts and buskers, and where he is developing an ability to sing nursery rhymes which formerly he had no interest or ability to do, despite the fact that his sister was doing this at 15 months.

And so, in the words of the wonderful wizard of Oz, "E Pluribus Unum, I agree with Madeline - it`s all about balance."

3 is as early as u can go. But even starting at 3, doesn`t mean u can get them to play decently then, caz their fingers are not yet properly developed, among other limitations like concentration span and hearing. And according to the principle of `timely` education, the best age to start music is 3 to 4--- where u get them to listen , participate and arouse their interest. 5 to 6(fundamental building)---ear training and basic playing, 7 and above is when u can really start to lay the technical aspect of playing...caz this is the time when muscles/ co-ordination are developing fast.
So if u wanna start your child at a tender3, never, never stress on technical aspect...but go for the fun, and teach him to love the music. The rest will fall in place nicely in time to come.

DW - I respect your right to give sound advice, based on your own high level of playing experience, which I do not share. However is there some fundamental reason why you maintain you should never never teach a young child technique in any circumstances? My son is very interested in how things work, and explaining technique to him has been one of the first and most enduring things to get his interest in the violin. My daughter, who is older and is learning cello (not suzuki), gets bored easily with technique, but loves note reading and just wants to have a go at the early pages in her beginner`s book. Is it wrong to recognise that difference in the approach I take? Must I insist my son approaches playing in the same way as his sister, even though he is less happy with that? I appreciate the technique may have to be redeveloped as his body grows and proportions change, but does it really do him any harm to look at technique if that`s what happens to interest him?

Oh no... good technic of caz has to be established right from the beginning. But what I meant was... dun be too intentional in getting them to do things a certain way. IE : if the kid cannot curve his fingers at a young 3 or 4, don`t force him too. A gentle reminder will be more than enough... I believe it`s not that they don`t want to..since at this tender age, they`re generally curious and receptive about any forms of kind instructions. It`s really that their fingers cannot handle these mean mechanical mode of playing. Do u realise how difficult it is for em to even lift and seperate each and every finger individually? So technical building at this age should refrain from playing tedious ex, or passages from books. But use fun, ex instead. IE : Finger walk. Wear the finger puppets and walk around your body(this helps to seperate and warm up their fingers), then with music and walk them to your violin`s fingerboard( introduce the instrument and the fingerboard...a place for yr fingers to walk), then tap the fingers to the pulse of the music on the fingerboard...etc...Then at last come bowing( this itself is another huge topic)...and playing the actual notes with the tapped rhythm on the fingerboard. So u see, children loves this kind of things. And they`re being trained to do proper technics unknowingly, and with children we tend to want to `actionalise` technics. Instead of saying : Lift and thrown yr fingers...replace it with Walk. And smooth changing of string: See saw near the bridge. Interesting right?
Regarding yr elder daughter... Yes, 1 minus point to pure technicality learning, is that it`s really boring. Well, actually u can get her to learn the same way as yr younger child, but perhaps make some changes to the ideas, as she`ll love the notice and respect u give her as an older, and more matured child. Hope yr children will love music as we do. HEY! David, comeron down to these 2 great `sisters` sites.
http://www.soloviolin.com
http://www.solomusic.net.com

Sorry, I had the wrong add.
This is the correct one :
http://www.soloviolin.com ( We have a strength of 200 over members there)
http://www.solomusic.net/forum/index.php?act=idx
We`re relatively new and looking foward to your contributions.

I noticed this topic on the 8notes forum homepage - as a clarinetist, I wouldn`t normally venture in here
My feeling is that it should be entirely down to the girls concerned what instruemnt they learn, and what age they wish to do so. If one falls in love with the viola, or `cello, or basson, or guitar, then that is what they shoudl learn. Forcing them to learn the violin coudl easily put them off the violin, or worse, off playing any instrument.
On the issue of age: they shoudl start when they want to - not a day earlier. I started learning the clarinet at age 8, because I wanted to, and still love it today. If I had started any earlier, before I wanted to, I would not be still playing it today.
By all means encourage them musically - give them the chance to listen to the widest range of music possible, and let them tinkle on the piano. But I would urge you most strongly not to make their choices for them.

well you went and missed it you have to start them at 13 months or else they will never learn it. Just kidding My piano teacher teaches 4yr olds. They are not average 4yr olds they have an attention span. Usually she waits till 6 or 7. AVOID SUZUKI!!! It is good for ear training but Suzuki players have a hard time ever reaching greatness, unless somone teaches them a different method. I hope this helps. If not.....................

thanks for the tips DW - I think I can use the "finger walking" idea!

My daughter started violin lessons at age 4 and used the Adventures in Violinland series which teaches violin technique, reading music and music theory. It`s a fun method and a very kid-friendly approach to the violin. We also had very short practice sessions at first (10-15 minutes/day - 3-4 x week) but she has worked up to 30-45 mintues/daily on her own after one year.

For kids younger than 4, I think I would just get them psyched about music - enroll in early music classes to develop their sense of rhythm and tone, hear live music often, play lots of CDs of classical music, kids music, and all kinds music. The Suzuki violin CDs by David Nadian (required listening in Suzuki classes) are wonderful for introducing violin music to new students.

I would reccomend 6. The youngest I have heard is 3 or 4. But I don`t think children are really mentally ready to start an instrument till 6 or 7. I knew this one girl in 1st grade who played violin. She was actually pretty good. I myself didn`t start playing violin until I was 9.

I`m 16 now but my mom started me on violin at 3 and i`m good but i quit for like 4 yrs and i picked it up again get them started when they`re 3 my mom says the earlier the better!!! c ya!

I`ve found (as a player and teacher) that it is individual to the student. Also, it is really recommended that a child learn PIANO first...then an instrument. Piano will teach them so many important things in music. Start lessons when the child is ready. Get them interested...buy them plastic toy instruments, let them show you went they are ready. Introduce them to the sound...recordings, concerts, tv concerts. And, in all areas of life, teach them discipline and focus. Kids learn different. Kids find focus at different ages. See when they are ready. There is no reason why they can`t start at 3 years old...if they are mature enough to learn it all. But, generally, when kids start asking questions, and actually focusing on the answers (lol), they are probably ready to start music. Early is better...so much is learned early. Language too...It is so wrong to wait until they are 14 to start language!!! Yikes...these skills are easily learned at younger ages.

If you find they are not taking to the lessons after you start...then talk with the teacher. Maybe they are not ready, or maybe they don`t understand the discipline. Or, maybe they don`t like the instrument. Just, pay attention to the kids. They will tell you/show you when they are ready. there is no right or wrong time. Good Luck!

I also forgot to mention, that it isn`t just the kids taking lessons...it must be the whole family. Kids won`t be able to focus by themselves. That`s the whole point of a parent. (doi). lol. Learning music is such a good thing to do...even if they don`t stay with it for life. If they truely are taught well, they learn discipline, focus, detail, relaxation of the body, understanding of sound, touch, and so much more! It`s more than learning a cute tune...it`s about learn good life skills. Lessons shouldn`t take from childhood...they should add to it. Help them in other areas too. Why do kids do better at school and other areas when in music? Because, not only do they know how to use their brains...they know how to relax and handle situations better. It`s like Asian forms of discipline...choose your favorite. These skills taught in music, should be used everywhere. Kids can`t be expected to be focused in music, but be allowed to goof off in other things. Focus and discipline does not mean no fun...just good, learning while having fun. Hope this helps someone!

As a violinist and teacher, I am shocked at all the animosity towards starting young. My youngest students are just over two years old and they absolutely love it. (The majority of the lesson is away from the violin of course with games training the ear, rhythms, strengthening figers etc. considering their short attention span). 3/4 is an ideal age for me to start teaching children at that stage of development.

I strongly recomend to you the book `Ability Development from Age Zero` by Dr Suzuki and/or `Nurtured by Love`. Some of his ideas are kind of crazy but nevermind those and realise the main point and that every child can learn to play the violin well if brought up in the right environment (frequent listening to music and loving encouraging parents). Also realise the aim of Suzuki is not necesarily to train professional violinists but to enhance a better way of life through music.