-If I were to propose that we do away with the alto clef, I should first have to achieve a consensus among a reasonably sized group of knowledgeable musicians. A strong argument against such a campaign is a of course the great quantity of viola music written in it, pretty much every orchestral score. Were such a consensus nevertheless achieved, we should need to conceive a some reasonable way to affect a transition. (Scotch)

-Re: "Wow! I don’t think some people realize that doing away with the alto clef would be very impractical. Why would anyone want to do that anyways? It really does not make sense." (Me)

-I don’t know that anyone is advocating that--at least anyone here. (Scotch)

That`s what I was talking about. I didn`t mean anyone was actually trying to do that. I was just saying if anyone DID do that then it really wouldn`t make any sense. And actually, by the way, a cellist reading from alto clef and playing it an octave lower would be transposing.

You guys keep on talking about that. I don`t even know why I brought it up... wait, yes I do.

While you "intellectuals" are over there having an "intelligent" "conversation", I`m actually having FUN...

Doing what? You ask. I don`t know, I reply. But it`s sure as hell fun.

Re: "That`s what I was talking about. I didn`t mean anyone was actually trying to do that. I was just saying if anyone DID do that then it really wouldn`t make any sense."

There are strong arguments in favor and strong arguments against. I`m inclined to suppose, offhand, that the strong arguments against outweigh the strong arguments in favor, but I shouldn`t be suprised if the alto clef eventually fades into obscurity.

"And actually, by the way, a cellist reading from alto clef and playing it an octave lower would be transposing."

It would not be transposing because there could be no constant interval of transposition. The middle line of alto clef, for example, is C, whereas the middle line of the bass clef is D a MINOR seventh below. On the other hand, the second line from the top on the alto clef is E, whereas the second line from the top on the bass clef is F, a MAJOR seventh below

Scotch, as long as there is an alto voice in the orchestra, there will always be an alto clef. I don’t see the viola disappearing anytime soon even if it is “inferior” ,which it is not, to other instruments. You can’t really compare one instrument to another effectively, because some are in different points in their evolution (viola). The violin has been developed and developed until it has reached its near perfect form today. The viola, on the other hand, has been neglected and neglected so it is not at its perfect form. The alto voice is important in the orchestra. It serves as a barrier between the upper voices and the lower voices. The viola couldn’t fit on Treble clef or any other clef as effectively as it does on Alto. Sure, it might have to read from Treble once in a while, but that’s no reason for it to change clefs. And a cello has the same strings as a viola so technically; it could read from the alto clef if it was transposing (reading an octave higher than playing). If you don’t believe me, follow this link and check the definition if you don’t believe me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_instruments

Re: [me] "There are strong arguments in favor and strong arguments against. I`m inclined to suppose, offhand, that the strong arguments against outweigh the strong arguments in favor, but I shouldn`t be suprised if the alto clef eventually fades into obscurity."

That was a bit hasty. Actually there`s only one valid argument that I can see against abolishing the alto clef, and that one argument is entirely an argument from precedent rather than from logic. The LOGICAL arguments in favor of abolishing the alto clef certainly DO make sense, whether or not they are outweighed by the argument against from precedent.

Re: "Scotch, as long as there is an alto voice in the orchestra, there will always be an alto clef."

There are plenty of alto voices in the orchestra right now that do not use the alto clef. If the viola were to disappear immediately, the alto clef would disappear immediately with it (except, of course, as an historical footnote).

Re: "I don’t see the viola disappearing anytime soon..."

I don`t either, but this is entirely beside the point. The viola can continue to exist and simply use other clefs. Already it uses the treble clef in its upper range, and it could very easily RIGHT NOW use the treble clef ottava bassa in its lower range as well without additional leger lines.

Re: "...even if it is `inferior` ,which it is not, to other instruments."

NO ONE in this thread has said or suggested that the viola is inferior. WHOM are you purporting to quote?

Re "And a cello has the same strings as a viola..."

You mean, I hope, the same strings an octave lower. I`ve already pointed that out. Pay attention.

Re: "so technically; it could read from the alto clef if it was transposing (reading an octave higher than playing)."

I could, but it DOES NOT, and THAT is the point. The viola is the only modern instrument that currently uses the alto clef, rendering the alto clef nearly obsolete.

Re: "If you don’t believe me, follow this link and check the definition if you don’t believe me."

Again, PAY ATTENTION. This is NOT a circumstance in favor of your argument (as we might charitably describe what you`ve written above). Rather the reverse--because, and I really resent having to repeat myself for the benefit of the intellectually challenged--if the cello could use the alto clef then the viola could use the bass clef. Since the cello is far from the only modern instrument that uses the bass clef this is not a matter of parity; the onus is on the viola.

Like I said, if the viola did read treble clef, then this really would not work out as well as the alto clef does. The fact is that you can not predict the future about the alto clef. You can think what you want to think without someone criticizing your posts (that could go both ways lol) whatever. It really doesn`t matter because this actually has nothing to do with "Alto is the best clef ever" (Which it is)(So really, you gotta give alto clef some props...or) Ok, everyone is happy. We can go back to being happy violists now....

Re: "Like [sic] I said, if the viola did read treble clef..."

The viola already DOES read treble clef.

Re: "...then this really would not work out as well as the alto clef does."

The lowest note on the viola is the octave below middle C, which on the alto clef requires one leger line and on the treble clef ottava bassa would also require one leger line. The treble clef ottava bassa would thus "work out" equally well, and not only have *I* already said this, I have also already explained WHY.

Re: "The fact is that you can not predict the future about the alto clef."

Neither of use can, and, unlike you, *I* have NOT purported to. This is what *I* said: "I shouldn`t be suprised if the alto clef eventually fades into obscurity." This is what YOU said: "Scotch, as long as there is an alto voice in the orchestra, there will always be an alto clef."

Re: "It really doesn`t matter because this actually has nothing to do with `Alto is the best clef ever`.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the original topic.

Re: "(So really, you gotta give alto clef some props...or)"

I have to do no such thing.

Re: "Ok, everyone is happy."

I`m not AT ALL happy with your apparent inability to reason coherently and your apparent low level of reading comprehension. You don`t have to agree with me, but common courtesy requires you to acknowledge my arguments. I expect you to try harder in future.

Hi Scotch, sorry you`re not happy, but let`s lighten up a bit. You are in a viola forum, and violists tend to be a bit protective of all things viola. It may not always be logical, but that`s what passion does to a person sometimes.

In any case, derogatory personal comments only serve to prevent other people from participating in the discussion for fear of being insulted. And that`s not how to build an interesting forum community, is it?