The way I was raised, I was taught that there are two kinds of time: chronological time ("Earth time") and God`s time, and our time runs faster than god`s time. That`s why I believe all of this is really stupid. I not gonna force you to be Christians, because it is not my decision to make for you, duh. All I`m saying is is that believe "In the beginning, God created heaven and earth and seven days could be equal to billions of years to us and seven days only to God. So I`m with the people who wanna revert back to music: let`s do that.

Martina,
How is evolution fact? We don`t have a fish all of a sudden coming out of water and turning into something else or a monkey turning into man. If that kind of stuff happened, then there wouldn`t be any fish or monkeys anymore, and there would be a whole lot more endangered species. God does have a say-so in what happens, but the next thing prophesied for Him to do is to take up all the believers and then judge the earth.

We can`t say evolution is fact when it has not been proven. That God created the world is seen in the creation around us.
Romans 1:20-25 says, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in thier imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." I`m not saying you are a fool, it`s just the word in the verse. The verses later go on to describe Sodomy. I see all this stuff coming true before me. The tree huggers and whatnot are worshipping creation over the Creator.

Another thing, we don`t see animals just up and decide to start writing or doing anything human like in the least. If evolution were fact and not fiction and man`s attempt to get God out of the picture, we`d see things evolving right now, slowly. We could have a monkey in a lab for years and then we`d see it change (over years with different scientists of course) firsthand. If that were to happen, perhaps I would start thinking it fact. What makes humans superior to animals in that they can make complex things (out of something already created) and write and do all sorts of things that animals can`t? The Bible describes it as we were made in the image of God. We were made to glorify God. What other duty is more fulfilling? And what other doctrine gives any surety that after death you will be rewarded for your time on earth? I guess in a way I`m glad you`re not reading my story on ff.net, for you`d probably have given me a flame instead of a nice review or even constructive criticism.

You can`t just say, "Evolution is fact...accept it.." without any proof. I`ve tried to show you, hoping someone will be saved through this, even if it is not you, but I don`t see the point of continuing since no one is seemingly even willing to listen to ideas others present. I`ve tried to see how evolution is true, but to me everything points to an intelligent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator. Perhaps I`ve missed something.

But, anyway. I think this viola forum should go back to music. I don`t see how if there is no supernatural according to many that music can be "spiritual." It is impossible, for without God, nothing can be "spiritual." Even saying it is spiritual implies that it is being done for the glory of the supernatural, which is the purpose of music -- to glorify God, though sad to say some doesn`t. I encourage people to continue playing their instrument and do it to the best of their ability. Viola is a nice instrument, and we`d all be better off if we all go practice our instruments instead of continuing this thread where no one is willing to listen. That is what I`m going to do -- practice my clarinet and violin. I hope you all continue to improve on your instrument, by God`s grace.

Jen

P.S. You can e-mail me the proof, Martina, because this thread needs to be music.

Will do.......... but keep in mind that I did not turn this into a religious thread in the first place.......

But to believe ONLY in the creation story, and not in evolution, is extrememly closed minded.

And you gave the BIBLE as your only proof???? How can you prove that the bible is truth?? You can`t...... Its a man made thing.... transalted over and over again. The bible is not neccesarily fact.

And btw......... I am supposing you assume that dinosaurs never existed...... because men did not exist when dinosaurs did.

There are all sorts of creation stories all over the world. Are you going to dismiss them too because they are not in the bible?? That is a very prejudiced point of view.

I just cannot fathom how people cannot see that creation and evolution go together......

And what is the creation story is metaphorical?? Like..... the seven days that God (according to the bible) created the world and man was actually thousands of years.... What is it took God that long to be satisfied with the world he was creating?? For honestly you cannot believe that it took only seven days......

But I know, clarinetplayer, that all my talk is for nothing, because you are a very closed-minded individual who cannot think for yourself. How anyone in the world can base their enite mind on one book, without exploring other alternatives, is beyond me.

Martina, while Clarinet Player did quote the Bible in her post, that`s NOT the only reason she doubts evolution. She was asking some honest questions that she wants answers to - stuff like "why don`t we see evolution happening now?", "why are there still fish, amphibians, and simple animals if we are evolved from them?", and "why haven`t more complicated animals started developing humanlike chracteristics?"

You, however, have offered no evidence FOR evolution - you`ve just told her that "you are a very close-minded individual who cannot think for yourself" and that she`s wrong, wrong, wrong. That`s no debate, that`s just pointless insults.

NO WHERE did she say that dinosaurs never existed. We have good proof they existed. Most folks would tell you that God created animals BEFORE man. Hence the existince of dinosaurs. Also, you say she is dismissing many other creation stories, thus she is prejudiced - but aren`t you ALSO dismissing many other creation stories?

I personally only have two problems with evolution. First, there`s the issue of abiogenesis - the idea that life came from nonliving matter. While I`d be willing to investigate a book or site on the subject if I found one, so far, I`m not sure how an ocean just sitting there doing NOTHING would produce a cell by the sun`s warmth. A cell is irreversibly complex; think of it like a mouse trap. You can`t take the cheese away from the trap, because then you won`t attract mice. Neither can you take away the spring, etc etc. Likewise, a cell has a few ESSENTIAL parts that I don`t think could gradually develop.

Second, I don`t entirely understand macro-evolution - the idea that species can gradually turn into other species, such as fish into amphibians, because there would have to SUDDENLY be a point where the new organism could no longer breed with the old, undeveloped organism. Take a look at dogs, for example - we`ve bred them for years to create different types with different characteristics, but any dog can still breed with any other dog.

What I DON`T have a problem with is natural selection and adaptation - the idea that the best-adapted species survive, and the survivors will pass on similar characteristics to their offspring. This is how finches develop large beaks for eating certain foods - with natural selection, or as some folks call it, micro-evolution.

If you have a convincing website or book I could read proving either abiogenesis or macro-evolution, I`d love to read it. However, since you have offered me no evidence and no proof, I can`t really read up on it, can I?

Violas Rule, but I am apalled at the way they are undermined. I just think it`s not fair that stupid (musically, of course) violinists were shunted into the viola section because they (composers) were too busy to write quality viola parts. They were too busy pioneering the new thing, the "improved viola," and I think it is because of this- that the viola was made first- that screwed over violas in the first place. I think everyone was entranced by this beautiful, more streamlined, higher- pitched instrument, because everyone knows, the higher the pitch, oftentimes the more likely it is for the musician to play the melody. With that, middle viola was squeezed into the very center (along with the cello, of course)and disregarded for it was niether high enough for the melody, nor quite low enough for the bass lines or rhythms or low harmony, or whatever. Violas got a really bad wrap. To be honest, it may have been more successful had it come out after the violin. After all, bigger is better, right? That`s my personal outlook. Tell me what your thoughts are.

Josh,

I have no idea why the viola has taken the position that it has...

Although for those of us who play it, and love it, it shouldn`t matter. The part the viola plays in the orchestra--playing the harmony, etc., is an extrmely important one. Try listening to a recording with only melody........ then add the harmony....... Which is more interesting to listen to??

Dinosaurs did exist when man existed. The book of Job speaks of at least one of them, but I don`t want to argue this point because this is another one that won`t quite be ending anytime soon.

Also, the days of creation couldn`t have been thousands of years for several reasons. The most important one would be that the plants were created before the sun so they couldn`t have survived thousands of years without it (photosynthesis doesn`t occur w/o sunlight as it is the major factor involved).

Well, that`s all I`m going to say on this forum regarding this stuff because I need to do some other things. Persevere, and learn your instruments even though for some odd reason the beautiful viola and their instrumentalists receive so many jokes and insults. It is a nice sounding instrument,and I hope you continue so that the next generations can learn it through someone.

Jen

All I will say is that the subject was changed back to music by Josh, who was smart enough to do so...... And I responded to his question musically.... And it SHOULD have been left at that. My e-mail address is posted... And I made some e-mails as well. So Your reply, clarinetist, should have been made to me via e-mail......

Have any of you viola players noticed how delightful it is to try to play 3 octaves of the various keys? I play duets with my grandson who plays the cello, so between us we can do 4 octaves. What I am wondering is could there be a new instrument that has all the strings necessary to go from the double bass viol to the violin register? If the strings were still a fifth apart, how many would be needed, and how would you design the instrument? Obviously it couldn`t be played from the shoulder like a viola, but couldn`t one person finger more than 4 strings? A guitar has at least six, for instance. Maybe we need a hand physiologist to answer these questions. But I would love to see the young people on this chat site address this creative challenge rather than displaying their ignorance about basic science for instance.

I have a couple of things to say.
First- Nannylynn, do you really have to be so abrasive? What does it achieve?
Secondly- basic science. OF COURSE we are not seeing evolution happening today- it is a gradual process. Unless you live for millions (billions? not sure) of years, you will not see it in action.
The Bible and evolutionary theory are not incompatible, either. Read the first part of Genesis, do a bit of research on how science believes life began, and note the similarities.
Thirdly- of course I believe in the Tooth Fairy, why wouldn`t I believe in my parents?
Ok... back to music... I was thinking about Nannylynns idea on the bus yesterday, and I got so lost in thought that I almost missed my stop. I`ve figured out a system of tuning that uses 9 strings
beginning on the lowest string of the double bass
E, A, D, G, (in viola range now) C, G, D, A, E. Haven`t worked out a design for the whole instrument, but will work on it.

Thanks, Rachel, for getting over the religious contorvercy and onto this challenge to conceive a new instrument. I had another idea today. What if we designed the instrument for two people to play. Perhaps it could be something like a table top instrument and the players sit at each end. One player does the fingering of the strings with BOTH hands, and the other does the bowing. With all the strings necessary to play from the range of the double bass to the violin, I really think two hands would be necessary. Maybe even two bows somehow. A short one for the bass notes and a longer one for the high notes. Maybe this thing would look like an abreviated harp on its side with a fingerboard underneath. What do you think?

Sounds like an interesting idea. It would encourage cooperation between the two players too. Sounds like a great idea to me; I think you should voice that idea to someone who makes instruments. Who knows? They might take you up on your idea. Finally, if this new instrument of yours turns out to be workable, what would you call it? I encourage you to follow through with the idea; I like it.

I`m not sure if I like the idea of an instrument that two people played..... Playing an instrument is a personal thing, and music is something that comes from your own heart and soul..... You know??

Although it would be interesting to see how different types of people played and instrument played by two people!! Think of all the psychological experiments you could do!! Put strangers, couples, twins, parents/children, friends, etc playing the instrument and compare how they play!! What do you all think of this?

Sorry, Martina, to say that nearly all of the Bible is true and god does exist as well as Jesus did/does
And there IS proof of that!!!!!!!!

Ummm........ this discussion has once again turned back to music... Anything non musical anyone has to say to me, they can e-mail to me.....