Be warned this is a fairly advanced topic.

There are many articles written about tuning a guitar using relative tuning Eg : 5th fret of 6th string (A) to open 5th string (A).

But funnily enough, I have never seen an article which actually explains `what` you are listening for when you tune (or rather temper a guitar)

Personally I try to listen just for pitch to get the ball park, then I focus my attention on beating to refine the pitch as necessary (note that beat free is not always best)

Has anyone seen the entire guitar tuned against open 6th string with no other relative notes. This is an amazing thing to see and involves listening for all necessary harmonics.

I have so far been able to tune the open 5th string (A) using open 6th string (E) as a reference note but that`s as far as I have have made it so far.

Geoff

I used relative tuning back when I was a violinist and I use it for guitar too.

It always worked well

You can listen to a tuning fork to get the A. You can also listen to the tone of the telephone to get the A. Once you have the starting point, everything else should fall into place.

Sevilin
http:www.classicalguitarboutique.com

Perhaps I was not clear?

What I was talking about was tuning with only ONE single reference note the E on 6th string. Then listening for the Nth harmonic on each other string to tune back to that E on 6th. It EXPLICITLY DOES NOT mean fretting the 5th fret of the 6th string to generate an A note to use as reference for open 5th string A (That would be conventional relative tuning)

Any thoughts on this technique?

I don`t know if this is what you`re asking, but one of my guitar heros uses a 440hz (A) tuning fork to tune the D string 7th fret harmonic...then the rest of the strings.

I don`t know exactly all the tech. terms you are using. My mother tried to teach my piano. I resisted as a young person..wasn`t cool for a boy in the 50`s. She was amazed that I apparently had and have "perfect pich". I could vocal a middle C for her. All I Know is I can tune a six or twelve string guitar vocalizing a C note. I then move up to E. After that I hear each guitar string and tune.
I know this isn`t written in any technical terms. Never learned a note of music. I have played guitar for nearly 38 years. Read tab and play by ear. Fingers find what I want to play and I play. Can`t understand why but, learning to play and playing came easy for me.

I don`t know exactly all the tech. terms you are using. My mother tried to teach my piano. I resisted as a young person..wasn`t cool for a boy in the 50`s. She was amazed that I apparently had and have "perfect pich". I could vocal a middle C for her. All I Know is I can tune a six or twelve string guitar vocalizing a C note. I then move up to E. After that I hear each guitar string and tune.
I know this isn`t written in any technical terms. Never learned a note of music. I have played guitar for nearly 38 years. Read tab and play by ear. Fingers find what I want to play and I play. Can`t understand why but, learning to play and playing came easy for me.

I think Tony`s starting to get the picture!

From my understanding of harmonics (don`t quote me on this). The first natural hamonic of a string is an octave above it`s primary resonating frequency, the second natural harmonic is an octave plus a third.

So in simple terms when you pluck the open 6 E: 85 % of what you hear is that E (the primary tone), approx 10% would be an octave above that E, and 5 % would be an Octave plus one third above (A) etc etc.

The gist is; that if you listen very carefelly to open 6 E, you should hear the octave above that E, and then if you listen even more carefelly you should hear the A which is what you would tune the open fifth string to.

These are the same principles used in piano tuning (where you can`t fret notes on a string and must listen for natural harmonics)

Geoff

Oops, I meant David not Tony (who`s Tony?)

Theory aside on what you are listening to, I can teach you the technique that I teach to my students. They usually aren`t ready for it until they`ve played for a year of so, because tuning with harmonics requires that you really listen and beginners are not very good at that. It takes time and lots of practice to open up the ears. So, if you are having trouble, it may just take time and practice for you to really hear.

Actually, what you are listening to are what I call the waves (probably literally the sine waves, but I`m no scientist). You are trying to make the waves on the two strings match. When the two strings are really out the waves will be fast, and they will slow down as you approach the syncronicity. If you overshoot the note, then the waves will slowly begin to become fast again until they are really vibrating. So ultimately, you are trying to get the two waves to line up and be in sync.

Using harmonics give you a purer tone and better overall tuning because the guitar uses a compromised tuning system (Equal Temperment like the piano) and it`s not totally accurate (some fretted notes will be a bit sharp or flat), which is why there are products out there like Earvana and the Buzz Feitan system to help correct. However, tuning with harmonics or a tuner(instead of fretted notes) helps cut down a lot of this error.

This is the system I have developed from combining many sources, since I didn`t like the high harmonics on the 5th frets:

Tune low E string. Hit harmonic at 12 fret 6th string. Let it continue to chime and then strike harmonic 7th fret 5th string. Tune 5th to 6th by listening for the waves and trying to make them slower. If you can keep the two strings ringing you will have more time to work, but you will still have to strike the strings several times.

In the same manner using harmonics, tune 12th fret 5th string to 7th fret 4th string.
Tune 12 fret 4th string to 7th fret 3rd string.
Tune 7th fret 6th string (B) to open string (same note) or 12th fret 2nd string (octave above). I usually check both out.
Tune 7th fret 5th string (E) to open string or 12th fret 1st string.

Try this and let me know how it work for you!

I think maybe this is confusing me, or someone is wrong. If you`ve been playing for a few years you don`t really need to fret any notes or play any harmonics. Most people when they`re used to tuning will just play the bottom note and tune the other strings from there (most non-beginners don`t need to play frets or anything like that).

You just learn the musical interval from practice, the same way a violinist does. What you are actually doing is hearing a 4th, then an 7th, then a 10th, then a 12th. You can use this to learn to sing notes (only way I can ever pass an Oral exam :D), someone plays a note and asks you to sing a 7th, imagine you`re tuning the guitar and think what sound you`d expect to come from the D string if the original note was an E.

I dont think you mean harmonics, listening to harmonics. Its just about knowing the intervals, and thats just something you pick up after you`ve been doing music for a while. If someone told you they were doing it by "listening to natural harmonics" i think maybe they were pulling your leg.

Yes, Luke, the My Dog Has Fleas approach (ukelele tuning) will definitely get you in the ball park, but it is harder to fine tune. As my piano tuner says jokingly, "Please, go ahead and try to tune your own piano. You`ll just break a few strings and then I`ll have even more business."

An award to you and your ear training though! Has always been my weakest area and I struggle daily to improve it. For some it comes easily, but for others ...

It takes years of practice to really fine tune those intervals. And if you prefer this, then I would suggest tuning 4th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 4th instead of 4th, 7th, etc. But do what works for you.

That is the point really. There are many different approaches to tuning. You can use a pitch pipe, (very unreliable), an electronic tuner (great not that they are so cheap and available), tune by matching strings on someone else`s guitar, tune by matching piano and keyboard notes (especially helpful if it is an old out-of-tune piano as most are), tune by matching fretted notes on the guitar, tune by matching harmonics (my method and similar methods taught by most schools and teachers I know), or tune by honing intervals (your method).

Ultimately, it doesn`t matter what method you use as long as you get the thing in tune enough to play. If you are going to play with others, then it becomes even more of an issue because you want to lift the group up not bring it down.
Julie

If you tune 4th 4th etc (i.e. tune each note to the one below) you can get progressively out of tune (if you are a little bit out on each one it adds up). Tuning the A a 4th up from the E, and then the D a 7th up from the E and so on means that if you are out by a little bit it doesn`t add up, you sorta start afresh with each string.

I actually have pretty bad natural relative pitch, its just I`ve been playing for like 10 years so eventually it clicked (I could only really do it properly in the last few years, and even now I tune my guitar up to a tuning program on my computer every few weeks just to make sure).

Eek! Tune each STRING to the one below. Not Note. That would just be daft :-D