Hellow to everybody, I´m a new menber in the forum. I´m from Spain and Id like to buy a double descant Bb/high F horn. What do you frefer? the conn 12D or the Holton H200. This brands (Conn and Holton) are too populars in U.S.A but not in Spain. Please help me!!

Thank you very much and excuse me for my very bad english

Your English is quite acceptable.

Funny this thread should just now come up. I was just talking with some freinds about these horns 2 weekends ago. Last year I had a very in depth discussion with Tony Halstead in London.Mr. Halstead had the privilage for many years to have an amateur horn player in his neighborhood whose job was as a Conn rep in England. So Mr. Halstead got to see the new design and fixes every year on the 12D. The earlier models were missing something. But in his words, "they seem to have fixed everything".

If I were to pick between the two I would pick the Conn 12D over the Holton. This is with the understanding you are buying new. If you are buying used I might change my mind.

When I got my most recent descant I narrowed it down to choosing between the Schmidt, Paxman, and Conn. I pretty much decided on the Conn 12d, until I came upon a fantastic rare Paxman.

If you do get the Conn12d get a BD mouthpiece from Moosewood mouthpieces.


Is there anything special you are looking for?
What do you want to get out of the descant horn?
Where are you planing on playing it?

Thank you for your answer. I´m a professional player,I´principal horn in the Banda Municipal de Almeria, now I´m playing a Paxman tripple 80M merewether and I´d like to buy a descant horn for the dialy work. I don´t like the Alexander and Schmid descant horns and I want to try with another brand. A friend spoke me about these horns and I decided to ask for help in an american forum. Id like to buy it new, and I´d like to buy it in the U.S.A.,with the help of a friend who studies clarinet in the L.A. University.

one questions:
A natural F valve extension are avaible for the Conn 12D?
I´d like to put this extension in my future descant horn.

Thank you very much


P.D. In my profile you can see the french flag, but I´m from Spain and I can´t change it!!!!!

My main horn is a Conn 8D pre-letter series with the .009 thin bell. I love it. But I also play a Paxman 40 descant(merewether) for 1st and 3rd orchestra work; and ultra high stuff above the staff in group horn works; like f# and even b-flat above the staff last Thursday.

The Paxman 80M is a good triple. If you want the descant for daily work I can see why you want the F extension. I do not have an F extension for my descant(I've gotten away with using the A valve inventively) I am thinking of making an extension though.

I know the Paxmans come with an F extension for the A valve I do not know about the Conn 12D or the Holton H200. The Conn 12D also has a "merewether" or meremether type valve. But I think the design of the 3rd valve prevents the use of an F extension. Let me check on that.

You also might like to contact Jim Paterson at Paterson Hornworks out of New Mexico, USA. He does a lot of "Paterson conversions" which changes the leadpipe etc. He has had several Conn 12D's over time and he would know if an F extension can be made for one.

http://www.hornworks.com/
Sometimes his email system has problems. So be patient. And the "horns for sale" listing on the website is not up to date. So, email, letter, or calltelephone)him.

You could also try Atkinson Horns.
http://www.atkinsonhorns.com/
I met Mark many years ago when he was first starting to handmake horns. He did some work on my Conn out of his home studio; he was a great craftsman. I don't know that he would sell a Conn 12D, but I am sure he or one of his craftsman could make you an F-extension if you wanted. He is a little pricey but everyone loves his work.

What else do you want to know?

Thank you for your help. In the Conn´s web page I saw in the 12D´s specifications "removable H secction" What is this?

I know the holton horns ( a few models). When I was studing, I played a H378 (property of the conservatoire) during one year and I liked it. Later, in the superior studies, I could try a H179 in nickel silver, a good horn but with a soo darker sound.What kind of sound the 12d has? I never try a Conn horn,In Spain the Conn horns are not populars, but the Conn trombones are too populars.I like the holton response and sound. What can you say me about Conn?

I´d like to buy the horn in Los Angeles with the help of a friend. Do you know a musical store im L.A.?

Thank you very much for your help

I believe the "H" section is just a tuning slide extender. So if you are playing the USA at A=440 you will most likely leave it in. But if you play in France, or with a group that is playing A=442 or 444, you would take the H section off to play in tune.

You might want to consider a Yamaha also.

Here is MY opinion :
In general I believe Holton horns are designed specifically to make it easier to make the notes come out of the horn. I believe Holton horns are limited in their ability to be as musical as other makes, I find them "tight sounding". Conn makes a beautiful sound, unfortunately they are slightly more difficult to get the notes out (a professional will have less problems than an amateur). Conns need more attention to tuning while you are playing. So with the Conn you will move your right hand more than with a Holton. Yamaha is better in tune than the other two horns. Their valves when cared for properly are fast and smooth. They tend to have a brighter sound than Conns but are more musical than Holtons.
That was general.

With descant horns things will be a bit different.
The descant horn contruction is different than other horns. I thnk you will find the Conn descant still full, but much lighter sounding than the Conn double horns. I think the Holton descant will be closer in characteristics to other Holtons, but still a bit brighter and lighter; still too tight for my preference. I have heard wonderful things about the Yamaha descant. It's tuning scale is by far more even than the Conn or Holton can ever be.

Best overall of the three I would say is Yamaha.
Best tuning - Yamaha
Best Horn sound - Conn
Best ease of playing - Holton

A lot of good jazz horn players are playing the Conn12D. But a lot of classical style players I know are getting the Yamaha descant (YHR881/D)

Conn dealer in Los Angeles is
ADAMS MUSIC
10612 W Pico Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064-2214
310-839-3575

but the website is very weak. You might be better dealing with the East coast or Mid West companies.

You might try http://www.wwbw.com/Welcome.aspx
They sell all three horns mentioned and have an outside the USA sales line. If you are trying to avoid import charges, taxes, etc. then I would suggest planing a vacation to the USA. Find out who has these in stock. Then play each one for half a day. Buy the one you want, then take it back as carry on luggage. If asked you traveled with it here so you could practice and now you are going home (you are a professional player after all). I didn't pay import duties on my Paxman, the only question asked was at the Xray machine and they girl only wanted to know what kind of instrument it was.

When I got my Paxman from another country I had someone play it and record it so I could listen to it before I made my decision to go further with the sale.

John

I was wrong about the H section.
The H section is the extended tubes for the A valve. Installed they put that last vavle in A, removed they put the valve into stopping mode. It is a removeable H section so it is one piece instead of the old individual inserts.

Remember you need the stop valve to play stopped on the Bb side of the horn because Bb stopped raises the pitch 3/4 step. Low F raises 1/2 step, and f-alto raise 1 full step.


John

Thank you very much!

I have a bad experience with Yamaha, I dont like its horns, they have a soo brigh sound.

Before I bought the Paxman, I was playing a Alexander 103 for five years, a great horn, with a great sound to play Mahler and Wagner, but this horn is not a friend of Mozart´s or Haydn´s orchestral music, and I decided to change my horn. I sold my Alexander and I bought a second hand Paxman 80M. I love this horn, If you have a Paxman you perfectly know the Paxman´s features, a beautifull sound with a great air capacity to play in a big group.

I would like to buy a horn look like my paxman and I think that the Conn 12D is the suitable horn (reading your lines) for me.Would you buy this horn? I´m going to try it here in Spain. If Ilike it, them I will tell it to my friend in Los Angeles.

Im going to trust in you.
I´ll wait for your answer.

Thank you

If I had to pick between the Yamaha, Holton H200, or Conn12D.

I would pick the Conn 12D. I was ready to get one amd then found the Paxman descant for a great deal. So go ahead and get the Conn 12D.

Thank you very much for your help!!!!