I have a King model 1159 double horn which I bought back in 1985. It was built sometime between 75-80. I am an amatuer player, playing with a local university wind ensemble so I have no need for a high priced horn like a Paxman, Finke and the like. A couple years ago I had the bug to buy a new horn and was looking at a Holton 181 or another Holton model for which I forgot the model #. Anyway when I looked at the Holtons I was impressed by the fact that I thought my older King had better craftsmanship in it than the new Holtons. The tone of my King is very nice and I decided I really didn't need a new horn. It is a large bore horn and a challenge in the upper register, for me anyway. Since Kings are not made anymore, with the exception of the silver Eroica you don't hear much about King horns one way or another. I tend to think it has much higher esteem than some brands, but maybe I am wrong. I just wondered how the quality of older King is thought of compared to some of todays popular mass produced horns such as Holton, Conn, Yamaha and the like. I tend to think horns, to a large degree are like fly rods, its the person handling it more than the price of the rod that makes the difference in performance. Thanks.

Older kings are really good horns. Especially if they are made before 1975!

To make a longer story shorter. You had a small number of craftsmen moving between the Conn and King brands for awhile begining in the 60's. In the 70's when King and Conn were owned by the same company, there was an idea of actually making the Conns and the Kings exactly the same and just stamping the bell different at the end of the line. While they were thinking of doing this and began retooling the leadpipes and bells were exaxctly the same. (These just happen to be the parts that make the most effect on the sound quality and ability to hit pitches). But then they thought better and cancelled the idea.

My favorite King is the 600 series Eroica 1170.

If your horn sounds good, and plays well, don't worry about it. There two horn players I come across throughout the year who play on Kings and they sound very good. Another belittled jewel is the Reynolds Contempora.

I am reluctant to purchase any new horns presently. None of them seem to be made up to par with the past greats. If I had to buy a new horn I would look at a Schmid double (not the triples), Duerk (very expensive but nice horns right now), Atkinson, and maybe Finke.

But I think you have a good horn there with your King.

Thanks very much for your comments Re: King horns. Yes, I think I'll stick with my King and forget about getting a new horn. As you allude to, getting a new horn these days that is of excellent quality would cost more than I can really afford. I just need to do a better job of playing the one I have, which I have th rest of my life to work :-) Thanks again

JohnLovesMusic

You mentioned the leadpipe and its affecting the pitch. I knew that, but never thought about that with regard to ease of plying in the upper register. Would it be possible, theoretically at least to get a leadpipe with a different taper that would make it easier somewhat to hit those higher notes?

Yes.
There are a variety of people who make after market leadpipes.
They can even out the feeling of the registers, they can bring problem area into tune, they can make the sound more penetrating, remove higher harmonics, stabilize pitch.
All sorts of things.
Yellow brass will help the speaking of the notes and be more repsonsive.
Nickel is more maleable.
And they are expensive (but not as expensive as a new horn).

Atkinson brassworks/Atkinson Horns.
Patterson hornworks.
deHaro horns
The horn guys


For a King I would probably recommend Patterson hornworks.
Tell him what you have (if you give him the serial number he can guestimate the age and therefore confirm the existing tapers in the pipe).
Tell him what you are trying to do. And he can recommend or make a leadpipe.
Then try the leadpipe out to be sure it is what you want.
Take it down to your repair person and ask them to change it out.
Ask them to use the lowest heat possible when soldering the new one in.

Be careful though. Don't go overboard. Remember you do still have to play the notes.
What you might do is find a passage that is giving you problems and try and play it on a different horn. Do you have the same problems? Take notes, this will help the leadpipe maker help you.
Just this last Saturday I sat with my friend trying out different leadpipe on an N series Conn. We tried an original N series leadpipe, and orginal 900 series, an Atkinson C3 in nickel (made ofr a conn), and an atkinson C3 in brass (made for a kruspe). They all sounded different and responded differntly.

Very interesting. There is a great deal of sound physics happening here isn't there. I will definitely take your advice and check with Patterson. The upper register is so frustrating, if I could gain a little bit of an advantage that would be a blessing, but I do understand your point about overdoing it, point well taken. BTW, I checked the serial # on my King horn again and it was actually built between 70-75. According to your comment, those are "good years".

I did take a look and read about the Atkinson Erfurt model for grins. Looks like a gorgeous horn, very tempting, but there is no local dealer here to try one out..just as well I guess.

No, Atkinson is over in California.
I was up at his shop two weeks ago with one of my students. She picked out the NR501.
The A102B is a fabulous horn for playing 2nd and 4th horn is orchestras.
And he had two different AG2000's there. Really nice horns.

He's not my horn maker but he knows his stuff. We've talked about him making a special bell for me and will probably do that later. I suggest Patterson for your leadpipe.

You know before you spend money on a leadpipe you might consider a custom or horn specific mouthpiece. It could save you a good $800. What mouthpiece are you using right now?

A Holton Farkas model, medium cup. some times I switch to a DC if I play a 4th part. I typically play 3rd horn.

I would suggest before you invest money in a leadpipe you try a different mouthpiece.
If you have the money try a model "A" or better yet a model "F" underpart and M6 rim from Moosewood Mouthpieces.

http://www.hornmouthpiece.com/

It's going to run you about $135 total, but I think you will find the model "F" will get you up and around the top register really well and still be able to handle your 4th horn parts. It will help notch your notes in. Tuning accuracy will improve. $135 might seem like a lot, but again, it's less than a new horn, less than a leadpipe, AND is made to work in a horn with the leadpipe and bell tapers your horn has.

I'll check it out, thanks. $135 is sure a bunch less than $800 for a leadpipe or $4000 for a new horn.

Before you go messing with your horn's lead pipe, why not try one of Tom Greer's custom mouthpieces? Tom Greer, maker of of Moosewood mouthpieces, has a specific line of mpc's to work with each kind of horn. His website has general recommendations, but when I looked over his website all I got was confused! So I sent him an email telling him what kind of horn I play, what I wanted in my sound & asked him for his expert recommendation. For about $130 he made something for me that perfectly suites my needs. My Moosewood mpc gives me a really nice sharp response, especially up high and my horn quartet mates all raved about how much cleaner & more focused my sound is. Save yourself a hassle, let the expert help you! [BTW, Tom is kind of a victim of his own success. He is very busy and very much in demand for his services, so be prepared to have to wait for a couple months for your mouthpiece. Also, I believe if you aren't satisfied with the first mpc you get, he allows for exchanges.]

When I was at the Denver IHS symposium last summer, I hung out for a while at the Moosewood table. Time & time again, when horn players tried Moosewood mpc's they often were able to play a note or two higher than their regular range, with less effort. Moosewood mpc's are very efficient. Tom, being a very accomplished horn player, experiments with various mpc's and various horns 'til he gets them "just right."

Valerie Wells
"The Balanced Embouchure" for French Horn

Valerie- Thank you very much. I did connect woth Tom at Moosewood and he recommended an F under part with M6 rim as I recall. I have been to busy this spring to get back to him and get it ordered. Now that I am done performing until the fall I plan to order one and have him build it over the summer.

Paul Jackson

I finally got that Moosewood mouthpiece. WOW! what a difference. Articulation is much better, crisper sound and better projection with the Mega Moose model that I got. It has given my old King (pre 75) an new lease on life. Amazing how few millimeters of metal here or there can affect the sound of a horn.

Pokey

You got the MegaMoose version?! Oh, you have no idea what you have gotten yourself into. Don't lose it.

I was talking to a Horn player last Saturday (I won't say the Brass Quintet he plays in as you will know who he is if I do). He had been playing on Moosewood for awhile and got a MegaMoose for a very specific concert performance. He couldn't play anything else - and since we both agree that mouthpieces should match the instrument he was screwed when he went to play a different Horn. He did love that mouthpiece, you can blow the heck on those MegaMooses and still keep a good tone and sound.

Glad you like it Pokey.

Yeh, I am quite impressed. I have tried other mass produced mouth pieces over the years and found them to offer little advantage. This is the first custom one I have evr had. I guess you get what you pay for.

Paul